For those asking about letters at the end of the receiver S/N

[running-man]

I found this one in the August GB auctions set.  DP Jilin gun with a B-West import stamp.  Nothing terribly special going on here:


Note that it has the letters "JH" far to the right of the S/N stamping.  We know that those letters are not from the original S/N stamping at the time of fabrication.

Now look at the Nationwide Sports box label:


They clearly utilized the extra lettering in the unique S/N on this one as the official box S/N incorporates the JH.  I just thought it was an interesting data point.  Maybe we can put this one fully to rest with some additional data.  I still believe that the extra prefix or suffix letters we commonly see were placed on there during export (or possibly at the bond warehouse) when recording the final S/N's for importer bound book records.

[Power Surge]

That's an interesting catch RM!

Now, the question is, does the label say that because the gun already did, or was the gun stamped because that was it's new designation? Chicken before the egg stuff....

But the one that I've noticed about all these extra stamping, is that they are always blued. Meaning they were done before the action was blued....

[Loose}{Cannon]

Ever stamped a blued surface?   It just smooshes the surface and retains the bluing.   All serials are stamped at the end of the manufacturing process but yet the stamps retain bluing.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Im with RM...  I still think they came in this way.  Far too many from various importers etc to have been done here, and they really dont serve any purpose to an importer.  I can see adding a number here/there when a duplicate is found, or a full blown replacement of the serial like some have been known to do.   I think Justin and I have guns from the same importer with the same letter. 

Maybe I should get out the ole stamp set and that receiver I have with fractured rails and do some stamping. 

[montigre]

This is the gun I was asking about in the other thread.  http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=2635.0

I do not yet have it in hand, so I cannot tell if there are any other unique features about it other than the suffix, but when it comes in, I will certainly give it a good going over.  I bought it because of the "DP" prefix and also for the unusual (to me) lettered suffix....

[Power Surge]

Im with RM...  I still think they came in this way.  Far too many from various importers etc to have been done here, and they really dont serve any purpose to an importer.  I can see adding a number here/there when a duplicate is found, or a full blown replacement of the serial like some have been known to do.   I think Justin and I have guns from the same importer with the same letter. 

Maybe I should get out the ole stamp set and that receiver I have with fractured rails and do some stamping.

It's possible..... but I just stamped a 2 into a Chinese letter gun receiver I have and there's way more silver exposed that blue left...

[Justin Hell]

I am curious what letters have been seen, whether they are prefix or suffix, and if they appear as single letters or groups of two.

My B-West imports both have two letters, /26\ 9m has M L and my DB has B P both as suffixes with spaces between letters...
My CSI /206\ has a C prefix...it may even be lowercase, it is certainly smaller than the numbers.
My KSI /26\ 10m has a P suffix...
My Poly USA /26\ 23m has a K suffix....

If all of one importer's happen to have two letters, it would lend towards the thought it was done by them. If all of one importer's happen to use the same letter, the same might be assumed.

It would be interesting to see if ranges of guns were added to since from factory to factory ranges were shared... Are there any duplicate serials in the survey that are only differentiated by factory or these mystery letters?

One could reasonably assume importers and the ATF may have been oblivious to the factory stampings...and just consider them to be Chinese jibberish and only pay attention to the numbers. I can see vast amounts of these added to (more than half of my Chinese have letters and they aren't letter guns) if the shared ranges from various factories would just be considered another Chinese SKS. 

I have thought in the past and still consider it odd that some say this serial duplication issue would have mattered no matter what type of firearm it was. Perhaps that is actually the case, but if so...it seems like any idiot could tell the difference between an AK and an SKS....especially with all the import stamp information billboarded all over what previously was a perfectly identifiable unmolested gun.

I find it very difficult to believe someone would be able to even catch duplicates unless they knew for sure there were shared ranges...individual guns would fall through the cracks, and it would be very unlikely that I would happen to have four of them. Without a fast computer at their disposal with a considerable hard drive....not running on floppies....I would think it would be nearly impossible to catch them individually in the field.

It could very well be that the Chinese added these post serial for completely different reasons. For instance, specially marked rifles for 'accuracy' may have been marked differently from factory to factory....or it's intended recipient may have been added later, or perhaps they were marked by the recipient sort of like an asset tag would be used here.  Then there is the chance they are refurb/proof marks that you may not see on every example.

It would be cool if we could come up with some kind of similarities that would lend insight into what they mean...I sure would like to know.

[running-man]

I am curious what letters have been seen, whether they are prefix or suffix, and if they appear as single letters or groups of two.

My B-West imports both have two letters, /26\ 9m has M L and my DB has B P both as suffixes with spaces between letters...
My CSI /206\ has a C prefix...it may even be lowercase, it is certainly smaller than the numbers.
My KSI /26\ 10m has a P suffix...
My Poly USA /26\ 23m has a K suffix....

If all of one importer's happen to have two letters, it would lend towards the thought it was done by them. If all of one importer's happen to use the same letter, the same might be assumed.

It would be interesting to see if ranges of guns were added to since from factory to factory ranges were shared... Are there any duplicate serials in the survey that are only differentiated by factory or these mystery letters?

One could reasonably assume importers and the ATF may have been oblivious to the factory stampings...and just consider them to be Chinese jibberish and only pay attention to the numbers. I can see vast amounts of these added to (more than half of my Chinese have letters and they aren't letter guns) if the shared ranges from various factories would just be considered another Chinese SKS. 

I have thought in the past and still consider it odd that some say this serial duplication issue would have mattered no matter what type of firearm it was. Perhaps that is actually the case, but if so...it seems like any idiot could tell the difference between an AK and an SKS....especially with all the import stamp information billboarded all over what previously was a perfectly identifiable unmolested gun.

I find it very difficult to believe someone would be able to even catch duplicates unless they knew for sure there were shared ranges...individual guns would fall through the cracks, and it would be very unlikely that I would happen to have four of them. Without a fast computer at their disposal with a considerable hard drive....not running on floppies....I would think it would be nearly impossible to catch them individually in the field.

It could very well be that the Chinese added these post serial for completely different reasons. For instance, specially marked rifles for 'accuracy' may have been marked differently from factory to factory....or it's intended recipient may have been added later, or perhaps they were marked by the recipient sort of like an asset tag would be used here.  Then there is the chance they are refurb/proof marks that you may not see on every example.

It would be cool if we could come up with some kind of similarities that would lend insight into what they mean...I sure would like to know.

Good insight Justin.   I'll add one point of clarification.  BATF's rules for unique serial numbers do not require that all Chinese SKSs imported into the US have a unique serial number.  What the rules do state is this (red emphasis mine):

How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?
(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

(i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1⁄16 inch; and

Specifically that you as the importer must ensure that no two firearms that *you* import have the same S/N.  So all CAI guns imported from the 80's to last year must all be unique, but all Chinese SKSs imported from 1984 to now do not necessarily need to be unless they were imported by the same company.  It doesn't matter if one is an old Mauser rifle and the other is a brand new FN pistol, they need to have different S/Ns.  The major importers run into this issue far more often than the one and done importers.  A small mom & pop shop like Valley Gun that imported only a few thousand guns over their business lifetime of a few years probably never had to deal with this.  Century, TGI, or I.O. probably routinely run into stuff like this and often check their records to ensure that numbers are not duplicated.  Indeed we see what importer specific stampings used to differentiate duplicate numbers look like in certain recent imports:





Of course, older imports could easily have been differentiated with a single additional prefix or suffix stamp as those stamps were what they used in many of the import stamps.  The jury is still out, we'll need to compile much more information before we can make any kind of a judgement I think.  My gut tells me the prefix/suffix marks are not importer stamped, the differences in the letters and the actual import stamps are pretty strikingly noticeable.

[montigre]

I am curious what letters have been seen, whether they are prefix or suffix, and if they appear as single letters or groups of two.

My B-West imports both have two letters, /26\ 9m has M L and my DB has B P both as suffixes with spaces between letters...
My CSI /206\ has a C prefix...it may even be lowercase, it is certainly smaller than the numbers.
My KSI /26\ 10m has a P suffix...
My Poly USA /26\ 23m has a K suffix....

It would be cool if we could come up with some kind of similarities that would lend insight into what they mean...I sure would like to know.

Good idea.  I have only 2 Chinese SKSs at the moment:
1) B West DP "Jilin Type 56" in Chinese characters followed by the SN with a JH suffix following the SN stamped as 2 letters together
2) KFS /416\ with no prefix or suffix around the SN (special forces gun)

[Loose}{Cannon]

If someone wants to create a data clection thread organizing the letters, arsenals, importer etc, I'll be more then happy to sticky it. 

We are data monters.... Dont forget it.   

[montigre]

Found this one while cruising GB.  This is another DP from Jilin imported by B West and distributed by Nationwide (like mine), but does not have a suffix:

[montigre]

If someone wants to create a data clection thread organizing the letters, arsenals, importer etc, I'll be more then happy to sticky it. 

We are data monters.... Dont forget it.   

Since it was my question that started this mess, I probably should be the victim to collect and organize the data.  Just let me know what would be the best format to use since this will be on on-going project for a while....

[armedhippie]

I really like what I'm reading here, makes my touch of OCD tingle    If you want to tackle it Montigre, I'd be willing to help when/where I can  . At the very least, I can dig out my chinese SKSs to see what can be added 

[Loose}{Cannon]

I dunno....   Hit me.

[running-man]

Here's my Debbie Downer input for what it's worth:

I started to post prefix and suffix on guns in the NON-/26\ Serial/Arsenal Data Collection Thread.  Look at some of the /216\ and /306\ guns with parenthesis for example.  The problem with that is there is zero import stamp info, and I know I don't have every single prefix/suffix called out on some of the guns.  It's a PITA to go back and verify them all, but I think it will have to be done at some point I fear.  There is no way we can incorporate importer data into that simple thread, it will be unmanageable in short order.

On the other hand, it makes zero sense to track prefix/suffix guns while at the same time maintaining the NON-/26\ Serial/Arsenal Data Collection Thread.  Duplication of work is a surefire way to have errors crop up into the data.

I had started a spreadsheet for all the completed Chinese feature standards guns, it has a similar format to the Comprehensive Chinese SKS survey, but tons less data and looks like this:


I chose not to continue with it because it took a lot of time to enter all the data manually, even with quick pick boxes for common features.  At some point, the plan was to simply use the survey to track a random interesting gun found on gunbroker or posted about the net that someone hadn't specifically run through the survey.  I think for that to work, I need to pare down the survey to the bare essentials, something that will take 3 to 5 minutes to enter all the data we need.  If I can do that, then everyone would have a simple link to a universal form where they could enter any gun at their heart's delight. 

The new version of the survey would absolutely *require* photographs of the full S/N and all important features of the carbine.  W/o photos, there is too much of a chance for a mistake to occur or the data to be grossly corrupted.  I've gotten data entries with all letter S/Ns, people cursing me out on general entry lines, and feature sets that I know are impossible combinations (stamped gun that is marked as a MC-5D etc.).  I don't know the answer, but I do know a bit or two about shirking away from work I don't particularly want to do!  

I think it best to update the survey and then utilize the entries in a viewable and searchable database hosted on dropzone or google docs.  That way everyone can see the data and can find whatever it is they might be looking for...the downside to this is that a ton of S/Ns along with importer info will be consolidated in one place on the net, ripe for unsavory types (maybe even three letter govt. agencies) to data mine and utilize for not-so-good reasons.  I'll have to think on that... 

[Loose}{Cannon]

I've gotten data entries with all letter S/Ns, people cursing me out on general entry lines

Oh I gotta see this!!   

[running-man]

I had one guy **** me out (lots of f-bombs) because one of the first questions was to enter the S/N of the rifle.  Apparently was pissed that he couldn't continue the survey w/o entering something.  Anyhow, about the fifth time I asked for a component S/N, he let loose. 

[Greasemonkey]

info will be consolidated in one place on the net, ripe for unsavory types (maybe even three letter govt. agencies) to data mine and utilize for not-so-good reasons.

Yeah....I'd hate to see a serial with 9 digits become a registered voter and vote for ........ the other side

It could happen 

[Greasemonkey]

I had one guy **** me out (lots of f-bombs) because one of the first questions was to enter the S/N of the rifle.  Apparently was pissed that he couldn't continue the survey w/o entering something.  Anyhow, about the fifth time I asked for a component S/N, he let loose. 

What, you couldn't include me or.....Jimmy.... that kinda smut is right up my, I mean, his alley

[Loose}{Cannon]

Did you tell him to kindly go intercourse himself?