For those asking about letters at the end of the receiver S/N

[Greasemonkey]

Did you tell him to kindly go intercourse himself?     

You mean, Bless his heart, and ever so kindly go intercourse himself

[Loose}{Cannon]

Perhaps....  Tell him he was #1 with both hands?

[Loose}{Cannon]

Just tell the next one that his serial numbers are required for future tracking and surveillance monitoring.   

[Phosphorus32]

I had one guy **** me out (lots of f-bombs) because one of the first questions was to enter the S/N of the rifle.  Apparently was pissed that he couldn't continue the survey w/o entering something.  Anyhow, about the fifth time I asked for a component S/N, he let loose. 

Wait, what the heck, we don't have a tin foil hat emoji?!  I can't respond appropriately to this post without one 

[Greasemonkey]

Just tell the next one that his serial numbers are required for future tracking and surveillance monitoring.   

And ............to find out how many SKSs are in the US


That was bad... Forgive me

[rwhite135]

You could always use the Tom Cruise response from Tropic Thunder, when he was on the phone with the drug traffickers, "Take a step back...AND %#@& YOUR OWN FACE!" 

[montigre]

Before this thread descends into the bowels of Hades, I take it that RM's suggestion is to expand the current Chinese survey to include whether the sample rifle has a prefix or suffix. 

This makes sense and would result in less time being used to redo data that is already in place...just have to add to what is already there.  I would be happy to help with this if it is decided this is the way to progress.  I feel there may be some important distinction the suffix alludes to especially after seeing both a suffix rifle and a non-suffix rifle that were manufactured at the same factory and imported by the same group and distributor.  Is the fact that both of these examples are "DP" rifles significant?  Was one accurized and the other not?  Was one slated for export to a special military unit and the other not?  These are question I'd like to see this data pull answer.

With regard to posting the complete SNs, would it be possible to blank out a portion of the SNs if the data is posted on a public hosting site?  That way those who are compiling data have the information that is needed, but everyday Joe and the alphabet agencies have limited access.   

[Loose}{Cannon]

Hades!?..   

In a nutshell yes, I believe thats what RM is saying.

[montigre]

Hades!?..   

Well, as a lady, I really couldn't type what I was thinking....

[Greasemonkey]

Ok....I'm gonna do my usual, go outside the box for a bit..

There is a high chance duplicate serials across models exist. Many rifles that don't possibly have their own serials assigned by the importers.

Russia started using Cyrillic prefixes in 1938 on Mosins for example, and I'm sure if one looks, the SVT, AVT and the PPSH, but, here is a list of random Mosin serials. They used the same prefixes as the SKS. Now without photos its hard to get excited, but I bet there are duplicates Mosin and SKS serial numbers.
(SKS/Mosin prefix comparison info done by RM)
HЯ 12** None recorded.
ив21** 1954, 3 examples: 1455, 3044, & 8195.
пу80** None recorded.
сц25** None recorded, ц not used in SKS S/N's (as far as I've seen anyhow).
СЗ50** None recorded.
КЛ28** 1951, 1 example: 3802.  1953 3 examples: 2665, 5425, & 5609.
АЛ54** 1954, 2 examples: 5071 & 6081.
УК15** 1957, 2 examples: 3873 & 5884.
ЗЕ39** 1954, 10 examples: 938, 939, 2830, 3982, 4682, 4821, 5004, 6683, 7630, & 8189.
УЯ5** None recorded.
ЖН95** 1949, 1 example: 1586.
OH75** None recorded.
KH28** 1954, 1 example: 8703

Romania would have been another nation with duplicate serials
"Known" prefixes used on Mosin M44s made in Romania, several duplicate the SKS prefixes.
1953 - AX, CP
1954 - AL, CP, BD, BH, BZ, DX, ET, FS, GR, GV, HU, KM, MD, RF, SK, TV, UZ, VZ
1955 - AB, AC, AL, BC, BE, BF, CA, CD, DF, EC, LE, MC, TV, YA, YE, ZX
Carry over prefix sets from year to year:
CP - 1953, 1954
TV - 1954, 1955

My Romanian '55 Mosin and '58 SKS share the same prefix, in the Romanian serial chart, there are SKSs numbered above and below this Mosin. I bet if one searches really hard, the SKS with serial CD1378 could or might appear, either way, I'm 99.9% sure it's out there. Romania followed the same format on their TT33 Tokarevs and I believe Aks, and Hungary used this same format on their Mosins.




Cause you can't tell me duplicate serials don't exist, 10yrs of Mosin production and 6/7of SKS production in Russia using 2 different factories for production, reusing the same serial prefixes, and then Romania reusing prefixes, there are duplicate serials out there.

Quote from: 27 CFR §478.92

   How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?
    (a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

So if you have several batches imported and they arrive at different times, as long as none of the serials in a particular batch match, your good.
Example:
There is an SKS in your first batch with serial AB1234, you import stamped and sold it, 4 batches and a year later a Mosin shows up with serial AB1234, totally different batch than the first and no conflicting serial in or with this particular batch, you could import stamp it and sell it, thats what I take it as.

A big importer in the 80's this would have been a daunting task, the more you import the larger your serial database is, in the early days pre-PC that would have been paper logs a foot or feet thick of numbers you couldn't duplicate.

Which begs the question why would China or Chinese exporter/importers been the only ones to do it? Was the prefix a Chinese thing, importer thing, contract type marking or ATF import thing? I could see Chinese exporters doing it...they knew exactly what the stipulations/laws were to shove crap across the border, they had the capability to refinish, why not pop a letter stamp to lessen the risk of a duplicate, stay under the radar, increasing the likely hood of a sale.

[montigre]

I believe, though without any proof at this time, that the Soviet bloc prefixes are used as you state--an effort to minimize the duplication of serial numbers across and entire production run.  However, I also feel the Chinese SKSs that have a suffix attached to the serial number are doing so for some other reason. 

Apples and oranges--we probably should not assign Russian methodology to Chinese production; there is simply too little information known about the Chinese manufacturing/export process to make those types of assumptions. 

Take the 2 DP rifles mentioned in this thread: mine, which has 21 million SN, is suffixed with a JH while the other has a 22 million SN without a suffix.  Both were manufactured at the same factory, imported by the same firm, and very likely at the same time (could even have been the same batch).  Why does 1 DP rifle have a suffix and the other not?? 

[running-man]

Quote from: 27 CFR §478.92

   How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?
    (a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

So if you have several batches imported and they arrive at different times, as long as none of the serials in a particular batch match, your good.

I don't think that's the case, there is no mention of batches anywhere (Batches? We ain't got no batches. We don't need no batches. I don't have to show you any stinkin' batches!). 

I take it to read that all firearms made or imported by XYZ company have to have unique S/Ns.  This applies regardless of when they were imported, regardless of country of manufacture, and regardless of make or model. 
ATF released clarifying rulings on Cyrillic/Greek/Non-standard characters in 2002 and then reclarified in 2013 that importers can reuse S/N's that were originally on there provided they are in compliance with the marking regs:

No Cyrillic allowed: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2002-6-identification-firearms-armor-piercing-ammunition-and-large-capacity/download
Reuse original S/N's: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2013-3-adopting-identification-firearms/download

Note #2 &3 in the second ruling:

2. The serial number adopted must have been marked in accordance with 27 CFR 478.92 and 479.102, including that it must not duplicate any serial number adopted or placed by the manufacturer, importer, or maker on any other firearm;
3. The manufacturer, importer, or maker must not remove, obliterate, or alter the importer's or manufacturer's serial number to be adopted, except that, within 15 days of the date of release from Customs custody, a licensed importer must add letters, numbers, or a hyphen (as described in paragraph 4) to a foreign manufacturer's serial number if the importer receives two or more firearms with the same serial number;

Obviously Chinese arms imported in the 80's did not follow these ATF regs, but the similarities are very interesting...

[Greasemonkey]

I believe, though without any proof at this time, that the Soviet bloc prefixes are used as you state--an effort to minimize the duplication of serial numbers across and entire production run.  However, I also feel the Chinese SKSs that have a suffix attached to the serial number are doing so for some other reason. 

Apples and oranges--we probably should not assign Russian methodology to Chinese production; there is simply too little information known about the Chinese manufacturing/export process to make those types of assumptions. 

Take the 2 DP rifles mentioned in this thread: mine, which has 21 million SN, is suffixed with a JH while the other has a 22 million SN without a suffix.  Both were manufactured at the same factory, imported by the same firm, and very likely at the same time (could even have been the same batch).  Why does 1 DP rifle have a suffix and the other not??

Apples and oranges... is it really, who more or less taught the Chinese? Sometimes the easiest explanation is the best, there could be some form of a Russian system in the whole mess. It's not a system one needs an Enigma machine to decipher, over complicating won't make it any easier.. Sometimes you have to look at the big picture, or to understand the student, you have to analyse the teacher.

Like I said It's out of the box of normal thinking, sometimes to get where you wanna go, thats what it takes.....all these nations have and pretty much share a pattern, the thing is finding the key to a particular pattern, find the key...and git-r-done.

Take the 2 DP rifles mentioned in this thread: mine, which has 21 million SN, is suffixed with a JH while the other has a 22 million SN without a suffix.  Both were manufactured at the same factory, imported by the same firm, and very likely at the same time (could even have been the same batch).  Why does 1 DP rifle have a suffix and the other not?? 

Simplest answer, it was ment to, maybe a different exporter, handler.. you have numerous could be's, and if's, very likelys in there.... nothing is concrete

[Justin Hell]

I just was thinking the duplicate serial idea has a little less merit with the DP and DB's having two letters. Adding one letter opens up 26 possible single duplicate guns...if they were only doing it for that...which I highly doubt. But adding a single letter increases that amount exponentially for each digit in the serial. Adding two letters, while virtually guaranteeing never running into problems seems like overkill....you gotta remember, if this was being done by the importer, these things would have been coated in Cosmoline...what a crummy job that must have been already.  

It gives a little more inclination for me to believe that these were added for some reason by the Chinese, after they were serial stamped, for some reason that is escaping us. Perhaps rather than proof marks, the Chinese used rejection marks, and possibly each letter signified something wrong that needed to be addressed before it made it out of the factory?  With a lot of the DP and DB examples being somewhat low quality compared to others seemingly made at the same time. They may have had a less experienced crew, or older machining to work with...requiring a more stringent acceptance process, or yielding firearms that simply needed extra care in getting out the door with the expected quality.

Just a thought...I know all the DP and DB's aren't as rough as the ones I have seen, but it does make some sense to my specualtive mind.

[Greasemonkey]

Lets look at what they could be if marked by China...
Some are again...outside the box

Inspector marks, maybe exporter QA, Britain had a proof house for their miltary exports, a quality mark, low quality, fair to middlin or high, exceeds quality
As said a duplicate serial suffix
Exporter stamps, mayby to signify who knows, end of a particular lot, beginning of a particular lot, even a test lot, or these xx marked rifles go to a certain importer state side
Maybe a manufacture mark, a change in production, something little and inconspicuous, metal change, machining method, or small parts supply factory change
A contract built rifle for who knows or they were accecpted by some form of Chinese agency, like Security Forces marked rifles
Maybe rejection marks, some part just a hair out of spec per their military, but suitable for use as commercial export weapon.
Maybe overruns, too many or excess parts built for a given time, the finished parts sent to another factory for complete assembly, a hybrid build of parts from two or more different factories
Built from parts collected from smaller factories that had ceased production or from factories that went to total Ak production after a given time
A weapon that was made, failed the final inspection, and sent for corrective action, repair
Chinas method of a refurb stamp or inspection stamp after x years in storage or light use depending on the users assignment.

And on and on. Dozens of possibilities.

[Greasemonkey]

Quote from: 27 CFR §478.92

   How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?
    (a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

So if you have several batches imported and they arrive at different times, as long as none of the serials in a particular batch match, your good.

I don't think that's the case, there is no mention of batches anywhere (Batches? We ain't got no batches. We don't need no batches. I don't have to show you any stinkin' batches!). 

I take it to read that all firearms made or imported by XYZ company have to have unique S/Ns.  This applies regardless of when they were imported, regardless of country of manufacture, and regardless of make or model. 
ATF released clarifying rulings on Cyrillic/Greek/Non-standard characters in 2002 and then reclarified in 2013 that importers can reuse S/N's that were originally on there provided they are in compliance with the marking regs:

No Cyrillic allowed: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2002-6-identification-firearms-armor-piercing-ammunition-and-large-capacity/download
Reuse original S/N's: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2013-3-adopting-identification-firearms/download

Note #2 &3 in the second ruling:

2. The serial number adopted must have been marked in accordance with 27 CFR 478.92 and 479.102, including that it must not duplicate any serial number adopted or placed by the manufacturer, importer, or maker on any other firearm;
3. The manufacturer, importer, or maker must not remove, obliterate, or alter the importer's or manufacturer's serial number to be adopted, except that, within 15 days of the date of release from Customs custody, a licensed importer must add letters, numbers, or a hyphen (as described in paragraph 4) to a foreign manufacturer's serial number if the importer receives two or more firearms with the same serial number;

Obviously Chinese arms imported in the 80's did not follow these ATF regs, but the similarities are very interesting...

Ok, then why does one not see importer applied serials on Romanian M44s and Model 56s, they were imported in your slated timeframe of XYZ manufactures cant use the same serial numbers, when there is a chance there are duplicates. They however are unique to that series of weapon.

And if China shunned from importation by 1994, later reg. would not have a bearing..all of the hundreds of thousands of imported military surplus, I bet there are many duplicates spread across thousands of weapons. There may be a M14, a NDM-86, an pre ban Ak, even a Mak-90, a .22lr bolt action or shotgun that are Chinese made that even shares a serial with an SKS. My Norinco JW-15 22lr has a 9.4 million serial(even though 94 is the year, it is part of the serial) which could plant it firmly in Syrian SKS number territory. I don't think serial duplication was an overly big concern for the Chinese.

[running-man]

Ok, then why does one not see importer applied serials on Romanian M44s and Model 56s, they were imported in your slated timeframe of XYZ manufactures cant use the same serial numbers, when there is a chance there are duplicates. They however are unique to that series of weapon.

And if China shunned from importation by 1994, later reg. would not have a bearing..all of the hundreds of thousands of imported military surplus, I bet there are many duplicates spread across thousands of weapons. There may be a M14, a NDM-86, an pre ban Ak, even a Mak-90, a .22lr bolt action or shotgun that are Chinese made that even shares a serial with an SKS. My Norinco JW-15 22lr has a 9.4 million serial(even though 94 is the year, it is part of the serial) which could plant it firmly in Syrian SKS number territory. I don't think serial duplication was an overly big concern for the Chinese.

You'll have to ask CAI/IO/TGI that first question.  There doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason as to why they do things one way, and then in the next import batch do things totally differently.  The Russian sneaks are a prime example.  Per the guidance above, 2002 is the definitive date BATF said something to the effect of NO CYRILLIC in the S/N and yet when 2013 comes and the Sino-Banians are rolling in, they (IO) import a few thousand Russian sneaks and you get crap like this:




What's the official S/N?  I would have loved to have been in that bonded warehouse listening to the guys trying to decide what the S/N of these would have been.  "Uh Cletus, let's just call this one or249!" 

Just because BATF said this is how it should be done, doesn't mean that's the way it was done.  Exceptions to every rule it seems.  I get the whole Chinese importing up to '94 before the ruling was in place, but I also think that BATF only issues rulings like these when there is confusion and people are going too far off the path for comfort - the law remains unchanged.  It could easily be that in the 80's and early 90's, importers generally did a good job with their duplicate S/N's and then something changed and BATF had to straighten things out a bit with a new ruling.   

None of this proves a thing unfortunately. It only lays out what should be there and why.  It could easily be any one of the things you mentioned in your previous post.  Heck, they could have been stamped by the factory, export company, Chinese govt. official, importer, wholesaler, or retailer for that matter.  We just need to roll up the sleeves and get the lists compiled.  Some kind of pattern will present itself and we'll be able to form some kind of hypothesis based on the evidence. 

[montigre]

None of this proves a thing unfortunately. It only lays out what should be there and why.  It could easily be any one of the things you mentioned in your previous post.  Heck, they could have been stamped by the factory, export company, Chinese govt. official, importer, wholesaler, or retailer for that matter.  We just need to roll up the sleeves and get the lists compiled.  Some kind of pattern will present itself and we'll be able to form some kind of hypothesis based on the evidence. 

Agreed, let's do this.   

[Justin Hell]

This might be a time when the Canadians could chime in. There is/was some importation of Chinese SKSs, do any of theirs exhibit any of these prefix/suffix letters?  Granted it wasn't the amount we got in, but surely some of them must have, unless it was done here. 

[fenceline]

This might be a time when the Canadians could chime in. There is/was some importation of Chinese SKSs, do any of theirs exhibit any of these prefix/suffix letters?  Granted it wasn't the amount we got in, but surely some of them must have, unless it was done here.

Not that I've seen. Seems to be a US thing as the only guns I've come across with letters tagged onto the end of serial numbers also have US import stamps on them