Russian Marking/Stigma Thread

[Dannyboy53]

Running-man I have that П in a box on my Russian but it's on the right side of the barrel lug. I'll have a photo tomorrow.

[Dannyboy53]

The symbol in question is on the right side of my barrel lug.

[Bunker]

Related to shooting/jamming repairs. Stigma is zeroing sample weapons after repairs. Usually in conjunction with other related repairs.  I've also seen this stigma alone and in a circle. 

Quote from Ruslan Chumak: "П squared" - stigma is zeroing sample weapons after repairs. Apply it on the weapon, past repairs and reduced to the normal battle in the dash remorgana. About this stigma has Tver docks, confirming its value.

[running-man]

Interesting Bunker. So could we say that any SKS with this stigma is a confirmed refurb?

[Loose}{Cannon]

Sure reads that way to me, although like you, I hate the term 'refurb'.. I think most if not all have had something done within its lifetime.   

[Phosphorus32]

Interesting Bunker. So could we say that any SKS with this stigma is a confirmed refurb?

I don't know but if it was "П r-squared" you'd be circling around the right area   

Sorry, early morning geek humor 

[running-man]

Sure reads that way to me, although like you, I hate the term 'refurb'.. I think most if not all have had something done within its lifetime.   

I don't know that I have an issue with the term "refurb".  There are many guns where you can look at it and say "yup, that one has had work done to it, no doubt about it!"  It's the terms 'non-refurb', "unissued", and "unfired" that really gets my goat.  It's hubris by the "SKS-gods" plain and simple.  As if anyone is so good in 2015 that they know the entire history of XYZ gun from the moment it was built to the moment it was pulled from the crate and sent to a customer's door here in the states.  The worst part is that there's never any caveat put on the term that lets new collectors understand it *will* change in the near future when additional evidence is uncovered (think new stamps like this [П] bunker just posted about).  Stuff like that is what got the whole ex-DDR fiasco all wound up in my opinion. 

I don't know but if it was "П r-squared" you'd be circling around the right area   

Sorry, early morning geek humor 

Killin' me Jon, absolutely killin' me. 
For those that don't get the geek humor: area of a circle = pi (π, who's symbol looks very much like a Russian П) * r squared.

[Greasemonkey]

Sure reads that way to me, although like you, I hate the term 'refurb'.. I think most if not all have had something done within its lifetime.

Refurbished always sounded kinda cheesy, call it what it is, a reman.. originals can be known good cores. You buy anything with a core, it's always called "reman"ufactured, calipers, alternators, starters..find a place who calls it refurbished, usually you will find it's a low end third party using the term.

So you can have two levels of rebuilding, a quick refurbishment or a complete remanufacturing.

Remanufactured as defined by a major engine manufacture....provide same-as-new performance and reliability at a fraction of the cost of new parts-while reducing the negative impact on the environment. Or refers to a part that, for all practicable purposes, has been completely remanufactured to the standard of a new part.
Refurbished usually defined as they inspect the item as a whole, maybe clean it, simply fix a broken/worn component, they release it for sale or use.

[pcke2000]

very interesting info. So the next topic could be ' refurbished vs repaired '?

[Loose}{Cannon]

Sure reads that way to me, although like you, I hate the term 'refurb'.. I think most if not all have had something done within its lifetime.   

I don't know that I have an issue with the term "refurb".  There are many guns where you can look at it and say "yup, that one has had work done to it, no doubt about it!"  It's the terms 'non-refurb', "unissued", and "unfired" that really gets my goat.  It's hubris by the "SKS-gods" plain and simple.  As if anyone is so good in 2015 that they know the entire history of XYZ gun from the moment it was built to the moment it was pulled from the crate and sent to a customer's door here in the states.  The worst part is that there's never any caveat put on the term that lets new collectors understand it *will* change in the near future when additional evidence is uncovered (think new stamps like this [П] bunker just posted about).  Stuff like that is what got the whole ex-DDR fiasco all wound up in my opinion. 

I don't know but if it was "П r-squared" you'd be circling around the right area   

Sorry, early morning geek humor 

Killin' me Jon, absolutely killin' me. 
For those that don't get the geek humor: area of a circle = pi (π, who's symbol looks very much like a Russian П) * r squared.

Yeah...  That too.   

[Dannyboy53]

I love it here!!! 

[Bunker]

Just throwing some more food for thought and up for discussion/debate.  I’m not 100% convinced on a lot of things regarding this stigma.  That being said, I have more faith in Chumak’s group than any other source at this time.  Depending on the era and platform, I’ve seen it unofficially ID’d as all sorts of different things.  For example, some Nagant’s will have this stigma and some will argue it’s a state inspector manufacturing for quality frames, while others will say it’s a repair marking related to firing issues.  Then the marking can be by itself or within a square.  IMO if it were related to just quality frames, we would expect to see it on all Nagant’s when initially inspected at the factory.  Then the argument of how significant the repair was could possibly dictate whether the marking stands alone or enclosed within a square.  This marking, whether alone, within a circle or within a square can be observed on several different platforms from as early as the 1920s well into the 1970s at least.  A few examples are the Nagant, TT, PPP, PPS, MN, PM, SKS, AK, and several others.

Here are a few examples of the Nagant for reference and note the marking is not always in the same location.

Solo П:


Solo П: 1921 repair:


Circled П:


П squared, no other repair markings:


П squared, multiple repairs:




To further convolute the matter, some have ID’d the early marking within a circle as being a test stigma for the strength of weapons test cartridges and two circle rings as checking the strength of weapons designed to fire “Magnum” cartridges.


So, the water in my view is still murky but is it possibly the marking means a few different things (frame inspection, firing related repair, test stigma, etc)?  IMO no, markings that remain the same over long periods of time don't drastically change (overall general intent of the marking).  Obviously some deviations and variations is very plausible but I would think they are all generally related.  IMO though, if the П is enclosed in a square, I think it’s relatively safe to conclude it was part of a repair.  Of course I could be completely wrong but from what I've seen to date, it is extremely likely the case.

[Bunker]

Interesting Bunker. So could we say that any SKS with this stigma is a confirmed refurb?

Now that's a loaded question...

The problem when talking about repair and/or refurbishment is that the arsenal form is a dated form just like any of our DoD forms, so that date means nothing.  It's the actual inspection data and inspector date on the form that's relevant. When a weapon is received it goes through the fault isolation process, which involves inspection, disassembly and so forth.  Sometimes nothing is wrong with the weapon or item (such as optics) but a certificate of repair is generated to indicate the weapon has been through repair/refurb.  So a stamp of repair on the weapon (physically) would indicate a repair (whether minor or major) was actually performed, so in that regard I would have to say yes.  Often times we see a refurb stamp on a weapon that has had very little work but nevertheless it's been through a repair facility.  Just look at our WWII weapons such as the M1 Carbine.  The majority of those ended up going through a repair arsenal after WWII concluded and many of them had nothing wrong with them but were still stamped.  But in the case of the П squared marking, I would think when Chumak officially lists this one as a repair marking with all the supporting evidence, that pretty much sums it up.  At this point he stated such but not officially (although publicly), but I personally would like to see some supporting documentation.

[running-man]

Now that's a loaded question...

I didn't mean to put you on the spot with that one.  I know that this refurb vs. "non-refurb" subject is a very sensitive subject for many collectors as it directly affect the 'value' of their entire collection.  In a way, when you make a determination like this it could easily be perceived as basically calling their baby ugly right to their face.  At the same time, Chumak uses some pretty strong language in his description, though I can see your point where 'repair' might not indicate the same thing to everyone. 

I'm at a loss for what remorgana (Реморгана) actually means.  Any idea?

It would be interesting to see the supporting documentation.  That Tver area sure seems like it was a hotbed of military activity. 

[Bunker]

A nice compilation from the TT community dealing with TT markings.  This info is found on various Russian sites but this picture pulls it all together.  BTW Mr. Chumak is very much involved with that community too.  The translation regarding the п squared marking is as follows: “Means for passing the test firing of an increased charge of gunpowder, too unequivocal sign of overhaul.”  Pretty much in line with what was posted in the earlier post.  Again, another platform where the experts contend it’s in conjunction with a repair.  BTW note the various “Star” OTK markings related to that subject.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Wow...  That does break down nicely.   We need to save this for sure.   Very interesting.

[Bunker]

Tula plant TsKIB COO?

[Bunker]

Have any of you seen this brand on a SKS? 

[Ol Relic]

Have any of you seen this brand on a SKS? 

That's Balakleya (Ukraine).  Very common refurb mark. 

[Ol Relic]

I'm at a loss for what remorgana (Реморгана) actually means.  Any idea?

It is indeed strange that the word comes up so often, but still won't electronically translate in either Russian or Ukranian.  It's very clear, though, both from context and from words like "ремонтировать" that the meaning is something akin to "overhaul".