Russian SKS Spike Bayonet

[pcke2000]

When did Russians start using the blade bayonet on SKS? in 1949 or 1950?

[Loose}{Cannon]

1950 I would presume, but I dont know if it would be something specific to Jan1.

[Justin Hell]

Based on the way it seems the Russians did things, using up parts as they made transitions...I am starting to think the blade made it's appearance in late 49. You don't see any '50s with spikes, yet you do see them sporting some 49 parts on early ones as they used up remaining stock and made the various transitions.

Additionally, it seems like an awful lot of trouble to change out stock retainers during refurb and put the old gas block back on...plus, the original stock retainers being pinned on the bottom would then require drilling out a ridge on the barrel for a top pin. All of this while retaining the original straight eared collar on the front sight...which also had to come off for a stock retainer swap....It just seems very unlikely to me to retain two obsolete parts only to replace one. I think 49s with blade ferrules likely came originally equipped with a blade.

I am also beginning to think that the spikes were reworked leftover M44 bayonets, the time frame is right and the similarities abound, just a little off here and there and they would work perfectly...it is possible when the supply dwindled, they began the update process. 

Alternatively, changing the parameters for milling on four steps in the process would be the only difference...and a little more shavings on the floor...they may have been made originally like that, on the same equipment. It is only the difference of 1mm at the 'hilt' and 1mm in the thickness of the shank. The overall length is about 5mm shorter, accomplished by shaving off that amount from the end of the shank, moving the bolt hole closer to the end than on an M44 in doing so.

This is all speculation, but the research I have been doing on the subject seems to paint this picture to me.

[Loose}{Cannon]

1: An armorer can take off a FSB and GB in a matter of seconds with correct tools.
2: The 'obsolete' straight ear and collar wasn't obsolete if the parts were already in abundance and could simply be reused.
3: Im fairly certain that the m44 bayo has a dif hole to chank end length, so this would make them a dif animal no matter what you did to it.
4: Every 49 I have ever seen was a refurb, so the likelihood of being updated to a uniform and more abundant blade at the time of refurb would make sense to me.
5: The ferrule being updated at the time of adding a blade makes sense also as that is its intended purpose.....Change one, change both. The straight ear components can stay because both hand/glove components are still being retained. 

just my .02

[Greasemonkey]

I think the difference in an M44 and this spike bayonet is the bayonet shank the collar rides on. Somewhere I remember reading you could turn the shank down where the lock collar is a little and slightly lengthen the screw slot. Reblue the thing and then you basically have a '49 SKS bayonet.  Overall length is the same, so no mention of cutting or other alterations.

I would imagine the attaching screw is the same, Russia would more than likely adapted over the Mosin bayonet to fit it, no since in reinventing the wheel when there was a proven design in existence to fill the gap. I can dig a M44 out and measure whatever..but I ain't taking it off, they are staked just like an SKS:)

I have seen several different photos of a M44 sporting a standard Russian blade bayonet, folded and extended, granted it didn't look quite right. They claimed it fit a little bit loose, but worked, so I would imagine it will work just as easily in reverse.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Hole to shank end....  its not just the shank diameter.

An m44 spike shank sticks out of the collar further because of this....  sure you can make one work, but they are a dif animal.  Remember I had this setup in my hands not long ago and one of the reasons I sent it back.  This is a noticeable feature.

[Loose}{Cannon]

See the dif this hole/shank location makes?  Bottom is m44 fitted to sks.. look at where the blood groove starts

[Greasemonkey]

Naw... it's almost the same animal...     I said screw it......break the stake marks... just to show it can be done. I $&%@ed up my crap.. 

Russian M44 with a /636 spike bayonet mounted, folded and open.. it does fit a little loose, the smaller SKS shank, but fits like a glove. The Russian M44 will fit the SKS, but you would have to spread the ears slightly. The overall length is even the same.




Russian M44 bayonet with same spike... oh yeah...it will work. The Russian shank is slightly larger than the SKS bayonet shank. Even the mount hole looks really close, just make the slot longer. The SKS bayonet fits the M44 bayonet collar a little loose, but won't go the other way around. Open the collar or shave the shank.
Excuse the grease... never had them off..smells good..




Slight screw difference


Of course the collar is different



Lets see....find a stand in, a temporary fix to get it close, it's doable until one can be dug out a cave somewhere or somebody happens to get lucky on the fleabay.  Bloodgroove...look how many are installed upside down. 

[running-man]

The overall length is even the same.

Wow, I did *not* know that a Chinese SKS spike and a M44 spike were the same length.  How big a diameter difference is it between the two?  Is the difference in the whole bayo body or just in the shank that fits in the bayo collar?

Good stuff GM! 

[Loose}{Cannon]

I know its 'possible to turn down the shank to 'make it work' (my bottom pic).  Im only stating (as seen in your pic) the hole location is different and so is the shank length i.e where the blood groove starts.... so is the diameter  The 1949 sks bayo is not a re-purposed m44 bayo.  Its that simple

[Greasemonkey]

I know its 'possible to turn down the shank to 'make it work' (my bottom pic).  Im only stating (as seen in your pic) the hole location is different and so is the shank length i.e where the blood groove starts.... so is the diameter  The 1949 sks bayo is not a re-purposed m44 bayo.  Its that simple

At the same time...with a little work... it fits and fills a purpose. It's that simple.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Literally never said you cant 'rig' one to fit.

I would imagine the attaching screw is the same, Russia would more than likely adapted over the Mosin bayonet to fit it, no since in reinventing the wheel when there was a proven design in existence to fill the gap. I can dig a M44 out and measure whatever..but I ain't taking it off, they are staked just like an SKS:)

I simply address this....   Its a dif animal. Not simply old stock or the same item with shank turned slightly smaller.

Also.... look at the lightening cut. Not even there on the m44, and the flat cut stops far shorter. Wonder if PKE would take his 49 spike off for some good pics.   

[Greasemonkey]

The overall length is even the same.

Wow, I did *not* know that a Chinese SKS spike and a M44 spike were the same length.  How big a diameter difference is it between the two?  Is the difference in the whole bayo body or just in the shank that fits in the bayo collar?

Good stuff GM! 

Ok.. I measured stuffs..    Nothing major, just enough where part A wont fit part B without some slight work. It's pretty close..pretty dang close, the M44 is just a tad larger in some areas.   Which is why the M44 collar fits a little loose on the SKS bayonet, and it won't fit the other way.

I have 1 more spike Chinese SKS and a few M44s and Type 53s I can verify..

In front of the collar where it slides...   SKS .625   M44 .652
Between bayonet lug ears                      SKS .342   M44 .343
Flat part of the shank                          SKS .339   M44 .341
Round part of the shank                      SKS  .462  M44 .467
Barrel dia for lock                                SKS  .560  M44 .570

Be really interesting to see what others measure.

[Greasemonkey]

Literally never said you cant 'rig' one to fit.

I would imagine the attaching screw is the same, Russia would more than likely adapted over the Mosin bayonet to fit it, no since in reinventing the wheel when there was a proven design in existence to fill the gap. I can dig a M44 out and measure whatever..but I ain't taking it off, they are staked just like an SKS:)

I simply address this....   Its a dif animal. Not simply old stock or the same item with shank turned slightly smaller.

Also.... look at the lightening cut. Not even there on the m44, and the flat cut stops far shorter. Wonder if PKE would take his 49 spike off for some good pics.   

Dude.. please use a little common sense  the age difference is 20years plus between these bayonets.. the nation that manufactured them is also different. Point is they are close enough to fit with a tad bit of work.  Bet the Russian ain't got the lightening cut... same era, same nation of manufacture. The M44 went out of production in '48, which is about the time the SKS went full production.. Maybe Russia modified an existing bayonet to fill the need, give it a little twist, knock a .100 off here and there, wahla.. allah SKS spike bayonet.

[Loose}{Cannon]

I duuno...  I have no common sense.     No need for personal attacks.   

Design carry over, OF COURSE...  re-purposed/reused/same item, No.   The differences that DO exist between the two tell me the 49 sks bayo isnt simply a reused or old-stock m44 bayo.       

[Greasemonkey]

See the dif this hole/shank location makes?  Bottom is m44 fitted to sks.. look at where the blood groove starts

Ok... I will just throw this out..  You say thats a M44 bayonet fitted on an SKS.. ok, wonderful, maybe it kind of proves my point even a little more.

Now... how is it's blood groove orientation any different than the actual 1949 SKS in the photos I found with the bayonet deployed? By all rights they look mounted identically to me, both bayonet blood grooves seem to start in the same place regardless of rifle/bayonet type and the tip is even orientated correctly.

How are these two different? With the exception that your photo the bayonet is off a Mosin M44 is on an SKS. If I'm wrong. ok, I am used to it    But they do look the same, same blood groove orientation etc.

My photos are different, the Chinese I have pictured is a 3 blood groove bayonet and it adds a funky visual difference, the M44 and '49 SKS are both 4 blood groove.

[Justin Hell]

 

Geez, I get a little excited over the contents of today's mail, forget to check what is up around here... and you guys are tearing **** up...I knew I should have posted a photo I had last night with my post. I already have a loose M44 and Chinese spike bayo...I don't however have a digital caliper, so the measurements are helpful.

The only difference in my photos would be the background and lack of cosmoline.....but I satisfied that with today's mail.

Sorry 'bout those stake marks Jimmy. 

I wasn't sure about the end of M44 production, but it does make sense that they simply recalibrated the milling a tad here and there, and basically kept the same design...tweaked for the different mount.  The lightening cut may/may not have been there. Those came and went with the design of many other parts on both Chinese and Russian. They may have not reused any already made M44 bayos, but it most likely was a tweaked version of the design.

I have a cool post I am about to make regarding a lot of this, but I am still gathering information and translating it. The original text translates badly, and I wanted to try clean that up a bit....but there will be lots of photos of 49s...still in Russia. I may pull my spikes off of all of my Chinese to see if there is any evolution I never noticed...they have all been off before....most weren't installed on the gun when purchased anyway.  Again, sorry 'bout those stake marks.

I will try to get working on that post soon, but I am stripping off BBQ paint...for a lil project.
So quit breakin' ****, more info is on the way.

(while writing this...)
Those photos look as if removing the few millimeters off of the end of the shank, tightening up to the same length as a regular Chinese, the blood grooves would be almost exactly at the right place deployed.

[Justin Hell]

Something I just thought of...perhaps the reason the spike was dropped was because they sent the equipment to China to make the T53?

[Loose}{Cannon]

Those photos look as if removing the few millimeters off of the end of the shank, tightening up to the same length as a regular Chinese, the blood grooves would be almost exactly at the right place deployed.

Only that would be comparing it to a..... chinese not a 49 russian.  (not saying it wouldnt make it look closer)

Of course, that wont change the hole placement which is also different between the two.   

[Greasemonkey]

Is that all, maybe a 1/4 inch.....geeze    nip and tuck it...Women do it all the time, even John Wayne Bobbit did it, but he went the other way, body guys make rust vanish on cars, so knocking a tad off that ain't nothing