More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number

[jliu123]

The single Chinese character is the code name for arsenal location.  DB, DP stamps have no triangle arsenal numbers and would not specify the arsenal without the location name.  These are the translations (they are located mostly in Northeast China where Soviets helped built networks of railway, military industrial complex ...)

旅: 旅順 (Lushun City)
丹: 丹东 (Dandong City)
沈: 沈阳 (ShenYang City)
大: 大连 (Dalian City)
白: 白城 (Baicheng City)
延: 延庆 (Yanqing City)
吉: 吉林 (Jilin City)
哈: 哈尔滨 (Harbin City)

A single character can mean many things; a particular meaning often necessitates a combination of multiple characters .  However, for name of places, it is not uncommon to use the first character as the code name of the place.  Another possibility of using single character is to maintain secrecy since it can mean many things.  However, if one places those stamps together, it becomes clear that those are names of places.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Sums it up very nicely..  Thank you for contributing this information and going out of your way to show your Chinese friends those characters.   

[Justin Hell]

Awesome!

Now if we can nail down what on earth the DB and DP actually mean.

Thanks for the information on the characters....so very cool to make sense out of things. 

[Dannyboy53]

Thanks jliu, a great contribution to the board!

[SKhiSm 59-66A1]

 

Great post. 

[Worm]

This is really wonderful, wish we knew what the DB & DP really meant, but the characters have always been a mystery until now. Thank you for sharing!

[Justin Hell]

This is really wonderful, wish we knew what the DB & DP really meant, but the characters have always been a mystery until now. Thank you for sharing!

Funny if it was Damn Bad and Damn Poor.... It is kind of amazing that these seem to be such low quality builds. My DB is a weirdo, but the DP I have seen in person seemed to be like a rush job too...or working with what they had.  They exhibit late features, but often with cast parts in the mix.  It is a pity there are so few photos online of complete DBs or DPs....

With mine being a cast receiver that does not match what is viewable online, with the vertical pins behind the chamber...I am curious about the general nature of all DB/DP's...

I did a little research and it sounds as if as little as 200 small arms ever were imported from Bangladesh, so it is possible that the data will never show up to get beyond a guess.....It does seem though that China and Bangladesh were not buddies until late 75 to early 76.  I have not been able to discern when any military aid began...but if DB indeed means it was intended for them...and the serials tend to be in the 70's they may have been mothballed B-grade rifles intended for aid, and the DB/DP stamping happened long after actual manufacture....

Still I am intrigued by these weird things....given the opportunity to buy any of the other SKS's on my list...I kinda like these crummy things, and might jump on another before any of my other desires.

[Worm]

Justin,

Bangladesh won independence from Pakistan in 71 & Pakistan has always had tight ties to China. One thing that has been brought up quite often in the past is the DB's, and how they look to be modified from the DP's, or, at least many show obvious signs of it.

Bangladesh did start relations with China in 76', could be possible any extras never delivered to pak were modified and sent over to bang, or were meant to be and came here later on.

All possible..

I'm pretty sure all of these have Norinco Export marks, meaning they didnt come here from Bang or Pak, they came from China, meaning they could have been designated for those two places (or one at first and then the other later) but never made it.

The timeline fits.. the pics from Paki during the forgotten war (71') all show side swivel spikers.. sooo, two things to find is are they all norinco exported? and are they all side swivel spikers?

Also we need to look at all the dates of known specimens.

[running-man]

I did a bit of research when I was gone based on this info that LC had texted me (BTW welcome to the boards jliu123, great to have you here.)

Even today the Chinese will often abbreviate province names to a single character as per this *gag* wikipedia page.  License plates in China have the abbreviation and then also use a numerical designator to denote which city in the province the owner of the plate is located in.  It's extremely plausible that the DB and DP guns were all made in the northeast sector of China (Heilongjiang, Jilin, and Liaoning provinces) at minor factories and the chinese character identifies which city the factory was located in. 

The one that sticks out like a sore thumb is Yanqing City (near Beijing), as it's a bit of an outlier from the others in the list. 

[Justin Hell]

I am so curious about these guns...

The city designator seems like it makes the most sense...now to determine what DB and DP truly mean for certain.  Since the fonts usually don't seem to match, I suspect these may have been made earlier, and DB and DP were added to designate their intended destination or purpose.  Since they all seem to have Norinco import marks the thought of Bangladesh and Pakistan make less sense, a study into when military aid stopped to either of these countries may help...as it seems unlikely to me that if they were supposed to go there, enough of these would be stockpiled to make it to export to the US.  The serial data seems to indicate they might have been made six years before any military aid to Bangladesh would have even happened....the plot thickens....

I am leaning more towards they were actually intended for domestic use....perhaps an early/alternate security forces designation?  The amounts imported of those seem to be about as uncommon.  Maybe the region characters represent where they were to be put into service? The DB and DP could be actual factory marks instead of destination/purpose stamps?

The intended purpose might lend insight to why they seem to be so shoddily built. One off fabricated various parts...odd parts not normally associated with the SKS.  Could they have been intended for training purposes only maybe?

I also harbor a suspicion that these may be the result of student/apprentice builds...which might explain the oddball parts...and the workmanship. Perhaps the city/region designators were to indicate they were made at armorers schools in those places?  Could they be experimental runs of various alternate parts to decrease cost/manufacturing time?  With China being a place of mass production, the low numbers of these could be explained as student builds, using outdated/worn equipment...which might explain the rough machining on the barrels. 

It seems so strange to me that the quality seems so 'last ditch' when these obviously were made long after they had already 'perfected' the manufacture of the SKS.

There is also the possibility that they just used anything and everything as far as equipment for machining parts in whatever way they could...but since the numbers of SKS's imported are so massive, it seems odd to me that they would go to that extreme to make as many as they could, no matter what the quality was....when they obviously had massive amounts stockpiled anyway.

Perhaps we will never know...but I figgered I would put those bugs in your ear. 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Your forgetting that many rifles intended for aid export never made the trip and were later imported to the US. The new condition Norinco marked middle east guns are a prime example. We also have observed early m21 rifles import marked when they had been thought to be only bring-backs. The late m21 can also fit into this scenario.

Also, many of the DB guns show signs of being altered from a DP in that lower loop was added to the P making it a B.  This means that many left over Pakistan (DP) guns could very well have been sent to Bangladesh (DB) several years after the guns were actually made.

On a side note...

I was told by the leading chinese weaponry expert Mr. Bin Shih that e looked at the chines sks guide and noticed the lack of DP/DB allocation to Pakistan and Bangladesh. He seemed to be under the impression as it was common knowledge to him although he didnt go into much detail as far as proof. 

[Loose}{Cannon]

DP to DB

[Justin Hell]

I wonder if any of the factors I mentioned contribute to the build quality?

If they are just giving away freebies, so pay less attention to detail, and use whatever they had on hand?  It would be interesting to find out if these were originally manufactured as aid to Vietnam late in the war, and then were stamped later when shipped elsewhere as aid.  The time frame could allow for it, and could explain why the letters and numbers seem so different in appearance...perhaps they just repurposed already manufactured aid?

Just throwin' some ideas out there...

Wouldn't it be funny if in fifty years there is some country that imported all the Hi-Points once they take away our guns someone dedicates a website to the research of their nuances and varieties....

[Loose}{Cannon]

Nam guns were Jianshe 26/296 factory only as it was the ONLY facility producing the sks in China before they diversified and split it up throughout the country circa 1968.  All DP and DB guns date from 1970+ and there has never been anything of the sort as a documented bring back. In addition, I believe the latest date /26\ from nam is a 13m 1968.

The lower quality seems to be more related to the small size of the location assembling them. Looking at the high numbers after the year designation in each serial, these are very low production facilities...

RM has more details on this.......

[jliu123]

I did a bit of research when I was gone based on this info that LC had texted me (BTW welcome to the boards jliu123, great to have you here.)

Even today the Chinese will often abbreviate province names to a single character as per this *gag* wikipedia page.  License plates in China have the abbreviation and then also use a numerical designator to denote which city in the province the owner of the plate is located in.  It's extremely plausible that the DB and DP guns were all made in the northeast sector of China (Heilongjiang, Jilin, and Liaoning provinces) at minor factories and the chinese character identifies which city the factory was located in. 

The one that sticks out like a sore thumb is Yanqing City (near Beijing), as it's a bit of an outlier from the others in the list.

I did asked about this city again and the suggestion was:

延:延吉市 (Yanji City).  Similar to Dandong city, it is a North Eastern city bordering North Korea with mostly ethnic Korean residents.

[Loose}{Cannon]

So ...  do I need to change this one from Yanqing to Yanji?

[running-man]

I did asked about this city again and the suggestion was:

延:延吉市 (Yanji City).  Similar to Dandong city, it is a North Eastern city bordering North Korea with mostly ethnic Korean residents.

Great stuff Jliu123!  I think that this is a much more plausible translation than Yanqing City. The location of Yanji city in the far east of Jilin province would put all these cities in a nice group.  The cities of Yanji, Dalian, and Baicheng form an approximate 1000 km x 1000 km triangle that encompasses all the rest of the cities in the list, with Shenyang, arguably the biggest/most important right smack in the middle.   

[Loose}{Cannon]

Ill have to update it when I get the chance...prolly next time I'm home.

[running-man]

Here's one I'm not certain of:



Kind of looks like a "K" with two extra lines.  Maybe the character 长 "Zhǎng"?

I see that Changchun is 长春 in simplified Chinese.  First major state owned Chinese auto works started there in the early 50's with Soviet assistance… Interesting. 

I'm getting more and more convinced that Jliu123 has it right! 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Oh for pete sakes.......   lol

Verify the city for this on and I'll add it.   Is that the city?  Changchun?