Author Topic: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long  (Read 26154 times)

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Offline running-man

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So recently Pcke2000 posted the following:
Tula star on rear sight is one of early production characters (up to 1952), but not so rare. And it indicates the rear sight on your carbine is a replacement.

Russian SKS45s are really not my strongpoint.  I'd say I know an order of magnitude more about type 56's than I do about Russians, but that doesn't mean I can't learn!  I thought it would be interesting to see what we can tease from the data SKS-Files has on hand of the guns located in our Russian SKS survey (the list is located in the Russian Serial Data board under the Breaking the Russian Cyrillic Prefix code) and see if we can help corroborate Pcke's observations.  I personally think Pcke is probably on to something, but of course, it's always best to just present the data and see what conclusions we can draw from them. (click on any image to enlarge)

1949 Tula guns.  These guns are all refurbished to some degree or not, as such they are really only 'probable' '49s though a good many have correct spike bayos which is the one feature not seen on a transitional '50.  These RSLs have a distinct numeral 4, I'm going to categorize them as "RSL #1" going forward to be able to keep track of them.  We see several instances of the star on the RSL (click on a photo to enlarge):



1950 Tula guns.  I have a surprisingly small number of '50 as-issued guns in my list.  Unfortunately, of this small number of guns, I find exactly one carbine that shows the RSL.  Interestingly enough, the 'transitional' 50's that I have in the database appear to have "RSL #1" types, but most everything else seems to have a different RSL type that has a noticeable different numeral 4.  I'm going to characterize these as "RSL #2" going forward.  I don't know that the following photo is good enough to conclusively determine that the star is not there, but I sure don't see one after blowing it up:


The '50 refurbs continue the pattern seen in the '49s with many RSL stars.  These RSLs run the spectrum, they are blued, stripped of bluing and reblued (almost parkerized look), and painted.


I also found a good deal of them either w/o RSL stars or that were simply unclear.

This one could easily be a scrubbed star, but the photo isn't of good enough resolution to say for certain:



1951 Tula guns. Quite a few more as-issued '51's and we see the star on most of them.  Again these are "RSL #2" types as the 4s are dead giveaways:


I also found a couple ones I'd chalk up to 'uncertain' as the detail is poor, but they could have stars, or they might not:


The refurbs follow the exact same pattern as the '50s did, lots of stars, lots of non stars, lots of uncertains.  No need to post these as they are identical to the 50's.


1952 Tula guns.  There are a similar number of as-issued '52s as there are '51s.  Again the majority seem to have the RSL star and they are all "RSL #2" types.


There was also an uncertain one in there, could easily be remnants of a star below and to the right of the battle sight П


The refurbs follow the exact same pattern as the '50s & 51's did, lots of stars, lots of non stars, lots of uncertains. 


1953 Tula guns.  We see a major change with the 53 guns.  RSL stars are gone.   Additionally, all the RSLs have a totally different front on the 4s indicating another version of RSL, the "RSL #3":


I can find star marked RSLs in the refurb category, but all are on "RSL #1s" or "RSL #2s".


1953 Izkevsk guns.  Very few of these exist and even fewer that are as-issued.  I only found this unknown RSL type and I dont see a star stamp on it:



1954 Tula guns.  As with the 53 Tulas, the 54 guns dont seem to have any star stamped RSLs on any as-issued guns.  Additionally, the RSL seems to be an "RSL #3" type:


There could be a different RSL on some of these 54 guns (hard to really tell from this photo, but I definitely have observed an "RSL #4" out there):



1954 Izhevsk guns.  Again, very few as-issued examples are in the database, though many more than 53 Izhevsks.  This one is a bit interesting in that it appears there could be a difference in the dual Cyrillic prefixed 54s and the single prefix/number/single suffix guns.  Of course with only a single data point of comparison, thats a pretty weak claim:
Dual prefix, no star, possibly "RSL #4":


Single prefix/number/single suffix, no star, "RSL #3":



1955 Tula guns.  1955 as-issued guns are like hens teeth.  I do have a few refurbs (which are also quite uncommon) that are pretty inconclusive and really cant tell us much about what may or may not have originally been on the gun.  I see mainly "RSL #3" in these:



1956 Tula guns.  It was somewhat hard to find a true as-issued gun, but they are out there with "RSL #3":


And of course, quite a few refurbs with various differing flavors of RSLs.  These ones had the identical 4s as the above, so I think they are original to this series:



1957 Tula guns.  Basically the same as 56s.  Again "RSL #3s" on these.  The as-issued guns:



And again quite a few refurbs, with varying RSLs:



Of course, earlier version RSLs can still be seen on heavy refurbs:



1958 Tula guns.  Looks like more RSL #3s in this series.  This would make sense if the letter run was a assembly line restart for the purpose of using up old stock already in inventory and to provide a training platform for the Chinese, Romanians, Yugos and the like for the build of their SKSs.  As-issued:


Refurbs:


Heck, there are even "RSL #1s" with stars on them:



So what does this all tell us?  I think the star stamp is correlated to the early-font RSL.  The RSL #3s through #5s don't seem to have it, they tend to have a /T&K\, [T&K), or [T&K] (where the T&K are combined together in a single letter).  What any of those stamps mean....I'm open to suggestions.  thumb1


Edit:  The early mid late convention I was using was really bugging me.  I decided to change the nomenclature of the RSLs.  This is what we appear to have:

RSL #1, 1949 and 1950 Transitionals:


RSL #2, 1950 - 1952:


RSL #3, 1953 - 1958:


RSL #4, Found on an early two prefix '54 Izhevsk.  It might be an RSL #3, but I think it's different (no, it's defintiely different, look at the 3's):


and Finally RSL #5.  This came off a late '54 Izhevsk Sino-Banian that was well worn and the pedigree is totally unknown.  Could be a worn #4 or a Chinese part for all we know, but it is significantly different than anything seen before:
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 11:11:49 PM by running-man »
      

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2015, 10:30:47 PM »
Its interesting that not all early guns have it...  Being random further leads me to believe its an inspection stamp just as the others seen in the same location. 

Its good to see the compiled data...  Wish we could have seen pke put it together. 
      
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Offline Power Surge

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2015, 10:32:36 PM »
Maybe we should be looking at different spots on the rifle too.... my Russian sneak had that same stamp, that same size, on the right side of the receiver under the stock line.

Offline running-man

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2015, 10:49:19 PM »
Maybe we should be looking at different spots on the rifle too.... my Russian sneak had that same stamp, that same size, on the right side of the receiver under the stock line.

Yup, It was bad enough going through 600+ guns worth of photos to compile just the RSL star stamps.  Hard part about a stamp that's not easily visible when the gun is together is 99% of the common photos taken of these guns simply won't show them.  You'd need to get them from boards where members knew what they were looking for as opposed to auctions where a pawn shop is just trying to show the basic shots and make their $$.

As an aside, there are indeed star stamps on early Chinese too such as those infamous "Sino-Soviet" star stock stamp marks that *proved* something or another way back when.  They could mean the same thing across countries (like we think for circle O, circle Y etc. on the barrel lugs) or they might not.  The marks were put there for a reason though. 

I think it's no coincidence that with the advent of the newer stye RSL the the mark changed though...
      

Offline running-man

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2015, 10:58:20 PM »
Its interesting that not all early guns have it...  Being random further leads me to believe its an inspection stamp just as the others seen in the same location. 

Its good to see the compiled data...  Wish we could have seen pke put it together.

I don't think it's as random as you do.  I think the ones that are 'missing' probably have them (it was only a handful of as-issued out of many examples that simply didn't have that mark, and some are probably the result of inconclusive photos.  I do know that there are occasions where the star is half hidden under the sight adjusting slider tabs, so maybe there are also occasions where the star is completely hidden by those tabs too.  Makes me wonder if that mark was put on the sight itself (off the gun) or if it was stamped while the sight was on the gun, but the slider simply moved up out of the way...

Pcke has learned a heck of a lot in the brief time he's been hitting Russian SKSs hard.  This may be a subject that many have gone over in the past and come to some conclusion (or not, it's impossible to really tell what's been thoroughly researched and what's been declared as fact by the SKS gods because they said so.  His observation is a darned good one and I think the data shows he's spot on with his '52 and earlier call.   thumb1
      

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2015, 11:18:06 PM »
You know me...  I hate assuming they 'must' have them and just chalk it up to bad pics or they are under the sliders.  Def worth the effort of more data

Lots of marks on these guns we will likely never know the meaning of.

      
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Offline pcke2000

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2015, 11:25:21 PM »
RM, thank you very much for your kind words and posting so many interesting pictures. As I mentioned before, I am still a newbie and open to different opinions and theories.

The very first time when I noticed this Star was when I did online research for my first SVT-40. It looks like all Tula-made SVT-40s have this Star (or at least very similar in shape, the size could be smaller though) on the major parts, this observation has been well known among SVT-40 collectors. It led to my speculation that this Star on SKS RSLs may represent Tula arsenal too.

I don't have many Russian SKS's in my collection, but I do like studying pictures posted on online forums and online auction sites.

I am looking forward to more comments and opinions on this topic.

Offline running-man

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2015, 11:26:05 PM »
Yeah, definitely lots of WAGs on my part for certain.  I was surprised as to how consistent the star stamps actually were though.  They remind me of the "delta" mark on the left side of the early Chinese receiver rounds; they are that consistent.  I'd never really paid much attention to them before, it's always good to take a second look at things and see what comes up.   thumb1
      

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2015, 11:30:26 PM »
I dunno about calling it a 'tula' star either...  Like, where's the arrow?   We have other stamps just as small with letters and numbers inside etc.  Just looks like an inspection stamp of some sort to me.  If it dont have the star, it has one of the others.... Always one of the versions there.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline running-man

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2015, 11:31:18 PM »
RM, thank you very much for your kind words and posting so many interesting pictures. As I mentioned before, I am still a newbie and open to different opinions and theories.

The very first time when I noticed this Star was when I did online research for my first SVT-40. It looks like all Tula-made SVT-40s have this Star (or at least very similar in shape, the size could be smaller though) on the major parts, this observation has been well known among SVT-40 collectors. It led to my speculation that this Star on SKS RSLs may represent Tula arsenal too.

I don't have many Russian SKS's in my collection, but I do like studying pictures posted on online forums and online auction sites.

I am looking forward to more comments and opinions on this topic.

No problem man.  It often takes a question that many people simply dismiss to get the ball rolling on topics such as these.    We may never have the answers, and it's certainly possible that others have pondered and perhaps even solved this problem before us, but we'll never know if we don't try.  Now that it's something I'm on the lookout for, I'm sure more examples will turn up.  thumb1
      

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2015, 11:34:20 PM »
Been seeing them for years.... Never much thought into it.

      
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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2015, 11:46:12 PM »
RM, thank you very much for your kind words and posting so many interesting pictures. As I mentioned before, I am still a newbie and open to different opinions and theories.

The very first time when I noticed this Star was when I did online research for my first SVT-40. It looks like all Tula-made SVT-40s have this Star (or at least very similar in shape, the size could be smaller though) on the major parts, this observation has been well known among SVT-40 collectors. It led to my speculation that this Star on SKS RSLs may represent Tula arsenal too.

I don't have many Russian SKS's in my collection, but I do like studying pictures posted on online forums and online auction sites.

I am looking forward to more comments and opinions on this topic.

No problem man.  It often takes a question that many people simply dismiss to get the ball rolling on topics such as these.    We may never have the answers, and it's certainly possible that others have pondered and perhaps even solved this problem before us, but we'll never know if we don't try.  Now that it's something I'm on the lookout for, I'm sure more examples will turn up.  thumb1

Uhhhh... I questioned this same stamp on my sneek trying to see if we could ID Tula made guns without needing the receiver cover.... and you guys dismissed it.

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2015, 11:52:33 PM »
I remember PS....   I just dont know how much 'importance' needs to go into it.  With the vast array of rework methods and locations.... Anything russian or early chinese can have them. 
      
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Offline pcke2000

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2015, 11:56:23 PM »
I dunno about calling it a 'tula' star either...  Like, where's the arrow?   We have other stamps just as small with letters and numbers inside etc.  Just looks like an inspection stamp of some sort to me.  If it dont have the star, it has one of the others.... Always one of the versions there.

I understand that there's no arrow in the star. I didn't create the term 'Tula Star', it has been used by SVT-40 collectors for a long time though.

Offline armedhippie

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2015, 12:02:34 AM »
I'll dig around some and get some pics.....the star shows up a plenty on mosins IIRC. For sure on the rsl also. I could lean toward it being an inspectors stamp or a Tula stamp....or maybe a Tula Inspectors stamp  :)). On the sight leaf I don't think much about it but when it starts showing up on mosin parts where the arsenal stamps usually are, it gets me to thinking ( it will be a much smaller star in some of those cases). Mosins parts, down to the smallest lil bit, all have an arsenal stamp. In the case of the Finnish mosins, you can have all different types and years of different arsenals stamps when say compared to a standard M 91/30 will just have a certain time frame. I seem to remember seeing it on a '44 Izzy Nagant revolver's trigger as well. ( I'm still kicking myself for not getting that 1)

I'm interested in seeing what info turns up on the subject....but I'm a touch ocd too ( ya gotta feed the beast  rofl)
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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2015, 11:34:15 AM »
I looked at all my as-issued russians and here is what I found,
49'-52' Tula all have star
49'-58' Tula have some sort of stamp whether it be a circle with a K in it or triangle with a letter in it can't tell what it is K-R-TR not sure, there also is a square with K in it......

53'-54' Izhevsk absolutely no markings at all.................something to look into!!

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Offline running-man

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2015, 11:43:37 AM »
Uhhhh... I questioned this same stamp on my sneek trying to see if we could ID Tula made guns without needing the receiver cover.... and you guys dismissed it.

Laugh, but nobody likes you Sal!  fart1

j/k man, You did ask it way back here: http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=1422.0 
And here's your photo:


I had nothing to add to it back then I'm afraid.  I'm not really certain I can add to it right now, but taking a RM WAG: I'd say that your RSL is a RSL #2 based on the additions I made to the original post this morning.  If it's original to the gun, then the gun is likely a '52, although perhaps it's a very early '53 as well using up the last of the '52 RSL #2s.     


It's interesting to note that one of the other PИ guns I have in the survey (sino-banian again), PИ1578 has this as the RSL, RSL #3 with a star and a /T&K\.  First one of those I've seen:
      

Offline running-man

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2015, 11:46:38 AM »
I looked at all my as-issued russians and here is what I found,
49'-52' Tula all have star
49'-58' Tula have some sort of stamp whether it be a circle with a K in it or triangle with a letter in it can't tell what it is K-R-TR not sure, there also is a square with K in it......

53'-54' Izhevsk absolutely no markings at all.................something to look into!!

Nothing on the Izhevsks at all!?  Can you snap some photos of your Ishevsk RSLs for us? It'll be interesting to see where they fit in the RSL #1-5 progression
      

Offline Dannyboy53

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2015, 12:16:24 PM »
My rear sight has the star but this sight was obviously added during a refurb.






Some of these stars are smaller than others.

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2015, 02:28:13 PM »
1954 Izhevsk: nothing on the top of the rear sight leaf but many stamps on the back.