Let's look at star stamps on rear sight ladders (RSLs) - pic heavy & long

Started by running-man, December 12, 2015, 10:16:41 PM

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Bunker

No. 66, 314 and 536 all used the star stamp and possibly No. 535 and perhaps others, and it was used on several different weapons.  Without a doubt a Tula specific brand and very likely tied to the OTC.

The TK stamp (and all the variations) is an OTK markings and documented in a few good credible books.

running-man

Quote from: Phosphorus32 on December 13, 2015, 02:28:13 PM
1954 Izhevsk: nothing on the top of the rear sight leaf but many stamps on the back.

Izhevsks most certainly have a different RSL than the Tulas do.  Look at the difference in the 3's between yours and a 52-58 Tula Jon.  thumb1

      

Phosphorus32

Quote from: running-man on December 14, 2015, 12:14:01 AM
Quote from: Phosphorus32 on December 13, 2015, 02:28:13 PM
1954 Izhevsk: nothing on the top of the rear sight leaf but many stamps on the back.

Izhevsks most certainly have a different RSL than the Tulas do.  Look at the difference in the 3's between yours and a 52-58 Tula Jon.  thumb1



Yup, that's a clear difference.  The weight of the lines are distinctly heavier in the Tulas, if that is consistently observed.

Power Surge

The number fonts are different too, most noticeably the 3 and the 5.

Loose}{Cannon

      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Bunker

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 12, 2015, 11:30:26 PM
I dunno about calling it a 'tula' star either...  Like, where's the arrow?   We have other stamps just as small with letters and numbers inside etc.  Just looks like an inspection stamp of some sort to me.  If it dont have the star, it has one of the others.... Always one of the versions there.

The "Star" marking is synonymous with Tula weapons from very early on.  I would consider this a Technological hallmark, much like the Tula hammer.  Although governed by the OTC, I wouldn't really call this an OTC marking.  To differentiate, the "TK" (Teh Control) marking for example could be considered an OTC acceptance marking, where it generally only appears once for a very specific purpose.  As an example, here is a 1941 Nagant and you'll notice the "Star" appears in multiple locations and was applied during the production process.  I've seen some weapons with no "Star" marking and others that it likely wore off, so not sure what that tells us about the significance of the marking?  There are different types of inspectors and associated stamps (e.g., tester, passer, master...technological, OTC...etc) and sorting this out is no easy task, even if you have several good Russian books on the subject.





Loose}{Cannon

QuoteThere are different types of inspectors and associated stamps (e.g., tester, passer, master...technological, OTC...etc) and sorting this out is no easy task, even if you have several good Russian books on the subject.


Precisely, this stamp can represent literally anything and although it came out of tula, its not necessarily a 'tula' star in the way the main arsenal stamp represents.  When you take in account all the little parts it takes to make an sks, if this stamp means the part was 'made at tula', my simple question is.... Where are all the other stars on all the other parts? 
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Phosphorus32

I see your point LC bit I still think it's likely a Tula star like an R on a Remington part is a Remington R, or an E is an Eddystone part for American firearms. Why only this part has a star? Perhaps the scarcity of Tula stars on SKS parts is due to the extensive serialization of parts on an SKS, such that marking them with a star was superfluous.  Tula Mosins have a plethora of star marked parts (e.g., barrel bands, various bolt parts, but not all parts). However, this is on a series of rifles with only four serialized parts.

running-man

Good stuff!  thumb1

The one thing I'll add is that this 'Tula star' (or maybe we should call it a minor star to distinguish it from a proper arsenal mark Tula star on the receiver cover or the mid sized star on the receiver of letter suffix guns) generally appears to be a single stamp on the top of the RSL and the RSL is either version #1 or version #2.  The mark is pretty consistently across these components. 

A select few of the later RSL #2s have a star marking in conjunction with some type of T+K marking, maybe indicating that these markings do indeed mean different things. 

In '53 with the advent of RSL #3, the star mark is simply gone.  Oftentimes it is replaced with a circle T+K, oval T+K, square T+K, triangle T+K, or a rectangle T+K, though some RSLs have no markings on top.  Did the T+K mark take over for the minor star marking?  Did some other mark under the RSL take over for the star mark and the T+K mark is exactly the same as on the later RSL #2s?  We're like blind puppies flailing around in the dark on this one and it is one we might never know the answer to, but it's interesting to think about nonetheless.
      

Loose}{Cannon

Quote from: Phosphorus32 on December 20, 2015, 09:16:35 AM
I see your point LC bit I still think it's likely a Tula star like an R on a Remington part is a Remington R, or an E is an Eddystone part for American firearms. Why only this part has a star? Perhaps the scarcity of Tula stars on SKS parts is due to the extensive serialization of parts on an SKS, such that marking them with a star was superfluous.  Tula Mosins have a plethora of star marked parts (e.g., barrel bands, various bolt parts, but not all parts). However, this is on a series of rifles with only four serialized parts.

Could be, but perhaps not.   :)

The perpose of the R/E on those guns were to allocate who/where they were made when several locations were producing the same parts right...  So then I must ask, who else other then Tula was producing the sks in Russia from 49 to 52?  Hmmm?    declare1

Maybe it was the Igor factory they needed to contrast part manufacturing with.    :)
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Dannyboy53

Quote from: Phosphorus32 on December 20, 2015, 09:16:35 AM
I see your point LC bit I still think it's likely a Tula star like an R on a Remington part is a Remington R, or an E is an Eddystone part for American firearms. Why only this part has a star? Perhaps the scarcity of Tula stars on SKS parts is due to the extensive serialization of parts on an SKS, such that marking them with a star was superfluous.  Tula Mosins have a plethora of star marked parts (e.g., barrel bands, various bolt parts, but not all parts). However, this is on a series of rifles with only four serialized parts.

The possibility that it is a Tula factory star can not be discounted any more than it can be confirmed. But I also believe it likely indicates Tula.

Loose}{Cannon

      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Loose}{Cannon

      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Power Surge

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 07:49:44 AM
QuoteThere are different types of inspectors and associated stamps (e.g., tester, passer, master...technological, OTC...etc) and sorting this out is no easy task, even if you have several good Russian books on the subject.


Precisely, this stamp can represent literally anything and although it came out of tula, its not necessarily a 'tula' star in the way the main arsenal stamp represents.  When you take in account all the little parts it takes to make an sks, if this stamp means the part was 'made at tula', my simple question is.... Where are all the other stars on all the other parts?

This is why I brought this question up months ago when I got my russian sneek. With no matching receiver cover, I was trying to determine a way to identify Tula vs Izzy made guns. I noticed this same small star on my receiver under the stock line. That is why I asked people here with known "as built" Tulas and Izzys to please check over their rifles for this star.

If we found them on all Tulas and none on Izzys, then that would be a good confirmation. If we found them on Izzys as well, that would kill the theory.

However, nobody helped with that request.

Phosphorus32

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 10:39:25 AM
Maybe it was the Igor factory they needed to contrast part manufacturing with.    :)
И for ИГОР ЗАВОДЪ, that must be what the '57 letter gun suffix actually means!  rofl

Seriously, I don't know the answer. The star could certainly have some other meaning but it has a long association (post 1928) with Tula, so that is the first hypothesis. Why did it disappear from the RSLs? Maybe a change in marking habits in this era.  It does seem odd that Tula would stop the star marking at about the same time that the only other arsenal that made SKSs started making them. 

I have so little knowledge of the AK-47 world, but did Russian AKs ever have any arsenal "parts markings"?

running-man

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 10:39:25 AM
Could be, but perhaps not.   :)

The perpose of the R/E on those guns were to allocate who/where they were made when several locations were producing the same parts right...  So then I must ask, who else other then Tula was producing the sks in Russia from 49 to 52?  Hmmm?    declare1

Maybe it was the Igor factory they needed to contrast part manufacturing with.    :)

Could be a specific line or sub-shop within Tula as well.  Maybe line A had this star stamp, line B had some other stamp, line C had yet a different stamp.  Can't discount and can't prove is certainly right Danny.  The fact that this stamp was seen in Tula manufactured weapons both pre and post-WWII (and not Izhevsk SKSs, maybe not anywhere else...does anyone have evidence to the contrary?) certainly is a point in favor of it being Tula related...
      

Loose}{Cannon

      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Loose}{Cannon

Im glad all these Chinese letter guns have chu stocks that were made by tula.    rofl
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Power Surge

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 12:41:00 PM
PS...  Because nobody has a clue as to its meaning etc.

That make no sense. If we don't know what it is, then why wouldn't we be looking for answers? If I had some as-issued russians, the first thing I would have done when this question came up was pull the stocks and check the guns.

Loose}{Cannon

Sure we should look into it. All I'm sayin is when you posted it on the receiver, I dont think anyone was able to make anything of it. Now apparently its gained traction to some degree.  All I'm sayin, and I'm pretty sure that makes sense.     ???
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.