Author Topic: FSeries Question (Read 25650 times)

Greasemonkey · « **Reply #40 on:** November 11, 2014, 11:51:13 PM »

Just to ask a question

This Max Wedge thingy, looks like it rests or uses the rear sight block in conjunction with the top cover pin, Ok I get it. But, what good is the mount if it is using the rear sight base, if the rear sight base is canted, wouldn't it affect the rail causing it to be miss adjusted, leading to the scope needing or possibly running out of adjustment. And, wouldn't that put you right back where you are now, no more adjustment..

Sorry, I'm not up to date on tacticool stuff, but inquiring minds want to know...

Rule #23- when a little love making hammer don't work, a 6lb mini sledge will just about always come through

agrace · « **Reply #41 on:** November 12, 2014, 12:00:20 AM »

Yup it would attach to the rear sight base. And I was thinking the same thing. It would be tilted as well so that may not work as expected either. But thought about trying it. Tech sights would eliminate the rear sight base. And to be honest me pounding on something makes me a bit nervous as I have torn up way more stuff than I have ever fixed.

. But also if the rsb does move will that movement not change the op rod channel ? Where it mind not be aligned with the barrel like it was?

Greasemonkey · « **Reply #42 on:** November 12, 2014, 12:40:39 AM »

I guess in my feeble mind,

if the rear sight block is canted, the the op-rod channel ain't straight to begin with. It may not much of an effect on it anyway, as I'm sure there is enough tolerance to allow for a few degrees plus or minus during assembly, yours may just be at the extreme end of the tolerance scale. So in a way, by setting it correctly, it should still work normally, the only difference is the sight is straight and the op rod hits a slightly different spot on the bolt carrier.

agrace · « **Reply #43 on:** November 12, 2014, 12:54:47 AM »

Agree. It is working now. Sorry for the dumb questions, I am just not as mechanically inclined as others and don't want to screw up my rifle. I will continue to look at it. Thanks for all the help

Greasemonkey · « **Reply #44 on:** November 12, 2014, 01:06:58 AM »

The only dumb question is an unasked question

And as far as being mechanically inclined, its a curse, as much as a gift.

Greatguns · « **Reply #45 on:** November 12, 2014, 11:12:58 AM »

Agrace, I'm with LC on this one. Trying to wrap my head around it hitting left. If your RSB is canted right then that pushes the muzzle right and you should need to push the front sight right to bring the muzzle left.
In your case you are suspecting the RSB is canted right, but you are pushing the front sight left which brings the muzzle to the right.
Seems to me there has to be something else going on here. With the above understanding, if you push your RSB to the left to get it timed up properly then that, by design, should move your POI even further left and you are already out of adjustment on your front sight.
Did you ever try my straight edge suggestion or take a pic from over top? A yard stick will work as a straight edge. Lay it flat with the edge of it on center over the receiver cover then either over center on the globe of the FSB or over center of the bore. For the pic take it far enough back that everything is in focus, but close enough and with hi-resolution so that we can see everything clearly.
I am starting to suspect the barrel was not quite machined right and was installed at an ever so slight angle. If this is the case they may have purposely canted the RSB to the right to line up the sights enough to shove it out the door.
If that is the case when lining everything up with the straight edge the line will be off. Even just on the cover the line will be off from rear to front.
BTW, you can also use a string running tight over the action.

Lastly, as mentioned, if the RSB is canted for whatever reason I would be suspicious of the magwedge lining up properly for use of a scope. The Techsight T-200 may be you best option. Having said that, you won't really know on the scope until you try it. If your scope of choice has enough wind-age adjustment then it will work, but if my suspicions prove correct then the scope will be mounted slightly off center. Kind of like your AK style Russian scope systems.

agrace · « **Reply #46 on:** November 12, 2014, 12:04:26 PM »

Thanks guys, I agree. It doesn't make sense to me either. And sorry if I am making this more difficult due to my lack of knowledge. It may be me, I am trying to use a Williams peep sight on the RSB and I may be causing all of it using that. However, I did tie a string around the fsb and then took it back and wrapped it around the receiver cover lock down lever. Measured from both sides to make sure it was centered there and then moved up and string looked straight down the barrel. From the below it does appear everything is in line, except the sting is a bit to the left of the rsb.

Greasemonkey · « **Reply #47 on:** November 12, 2014, 01:30:53 PM »

"What if" time

What if you just try to install the Max Wedge thingy, it's a chunk of machined aluminium, so, it should in theory be straight. With it mounted to the top cover pin, if it wont line up with the RSB, then there is the problem, knock the pin out of the RSB and smack the ever living dog piss out of it, and rotate it till it fits. It shouldn’t take much, only .005 or so of movement. Then run I think it's a 3/32 drill bit or a tiny round file to clean and straighten out the hole out and reinsert the lock pin. Then once the scope thingy fits, put the rifle back into its original form and try it. If it's not the RSB thats canted, the scope thingy in theory will or should drop right on and the problem is elsewhere, such as a bent barrel or canted front sight.

This is just what I would try for S&Gs. Trial error and elimination

Greatguns · « **Reply #48 on:** November 12, 2014, 01:37:52 PM »

It's hard to tell due to the angle of the pic since you are not lined up directly in line with the string, but a little off to the right yourself. As is, it does look like the chamber is also off to the right a little which would lend itself to what I was saying.
Obviously I can't be certain without getting my hands on it, but IMO I think either the barrel threads were machined off thus causing the misalignment of the barrel off to the left or the barrel has a slight bend to the left. Both of which would cause what is happening and give the alignment issues to the pressed on parts you are seeing. This also causing the need to push the front sight left.
If my suspicions are correct you have these fixes before you.
1) the hardest fix but most proper would be a cold bend correction on the barrel.
2) next would be to cant the FSB to the left to get your adjustment capabilities back. Fairly easy, but not my highest recommendation. Unless you decide you want a quick fix while keeping it original.
3) put on the Techsight(recommend the T-200) which will give you the longest sight radius and most windage adjustment while giving a decent appearance of alignment.
4) Install the Magwedge and try a scope with the possibility that you will run out of windage adjustment. If this fails you are still set up to install the Tech-sight.

The issue with any but the first fix is that with the alignment of the front and rear sights not being true you are forced to zero windage as well as elevation at every distance. It goes back to the angle game I mentioned before. If your action alignment is true once your windage is set you are good throughout your effective ballistic range and only have to worry about elevation. If your action alignment is off, like yours seems to be, then every increased increment of distance you will have to adjust for windage as well as elevation.

Greatguns · « **Reply #49 on:** November 12, 2014, 01:43:04 PM »

Quote from: Greasemonkey on November 12, 2014, 01:30:53 PM

"What if" time What if you just try to install the Max Wedge thingy, it's a chunk of machined aluminium, so, it should in theory be straight. With it mounted to the top cover pin, if it wont line up with the RSB, then there is the problem, knock the pin out of the RSB and smack the ever living dog piss out of it, and rotate it till it fits. It shouldn’t take much, only .005 or so of movement. Then run I think it's a 3/32 drill bit or a tiny round file to clean and straighten out the hole out and reinsert the lock pin. Then once the scope thingy fits, put the rifle back into its original form and try it. If it's not the RSB thats canted, the scope thingy in theory will or should drop right on and the problem is elsewhere, such as a bent barrel or canted front sight.

This is just what I would try for S&Gs. Trial error and elimination

GM, this is what LC and I are eluding to and which I explained more about above. If it is a matter of the RSB simply being canted to the right then by effect the rifle should be shooting off to the right, but it is not. It is hitting off to the left and AG is having to max out the front post to the left to bring it back into position.
Don't get me wrong. Your thought on the magwedge lining up to show that the RSB is canted or not is a good idea. It is only that I believe the POA and POI dictate and eliminate that as being the problem.

Loose}{Cannon · « **Reply #50 on:** November 12, 2014, 02:08:31 PM »

Yeah... something strange must be going on. After I thought about it, the poi being left with a far left post drift and a right cant rsb just doesn't make sense.

Being that both front and rear sight mounting locations are on the barrel, Im having a hard time seeing a misalignment in receiver to barrel mating. $:-\$

Greatguns · « **Reply #51 on:** November 12, 2014, 02:31:09 PM »

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 12, 2014, 02:08:31 PM

Yeah... something strange must be going on. After I thought about it, the poi being left with a far left post drift and a right cant rsb just doesn't make sense.

Being that both front and rear sight mounting locations are on the barrel, Im having a hard time seeing a misalignment in receiver to barrel mating. $:-\$

I say this with the opinion that more than likely the barrel is bent. Nevertheless, keep in mind the sight view includes your line of sight from the eye forward. The eye being behind the rear of the receiver. If, the barrel threading was machined off somehow thus pushing the barrel to the left and if, they canted the RSB to compensate for it, in theory, it would have the cause and effect we are discussing here. It could also be the receiver that was machined wrong. Maybe it wasn't secure during process or something. I don't know if that could happen, or if it could that it would be enough to have the effect on the alignment to cause the issue that AG's rifle is having.

Heck maybe AG is shooting right handed and is left eye dominant and that is the whole problem.

agrace · « **Reply #52 on:** November 12, 2014, 02:42:20 PM »

I wish.. but I do shoot left handed

but I am left eye dominant. I will continue to mess with it a bit, if all else fails ship it off to Murray and see if he can find it. So what about this. If the barrel were bent toward the left, just a tad bit, that would cause what I am experiencing? I cannot take a picture of it.. well I can try.. but with the rifle stripped, sitting in my vice and looking down over the receiver and over the rsb, it looks like the front sight globe is to the left.

agrace · « **Reply #53 on:** November 12, 2014, 02:49:10 PM »

Here are the 3 shots I got of that.

I know what you mean about getting your hands on it, if we were all here looking at this it would be much easier.

I also threw the magwedge rail on the rife It went on fine, no bind nothing. I also checked the level of it and it is level all the way to the rsb. So.. it looks like it could be slight bend in the barrel

Greatguns · « **Reply #54 on:** November 12, 2014, 03:57:27 PM »

Here is what I can see from the second pic which, although blurry appears to be lined up well. You can see the front globe is off to the left while everything else appears to line up. More evidence toward the barrel being bent.

I wish I still had access to a hydraulic press. I'd just have you come up to KC and I'd bend it for you. If you have access to one I can walk you though it if you want to try.

agrace · « **Reply #55 on:** November 12, 2014, 04:15:14 PM »

no sir.. no access... one question though. Is this thing safe to shoot this way? I would assume it is but.. never hurts to ask. I can try a scope and if that doesn't work a tech sight and see what I can get. Just checked Murray's site and he has a barrel straighten for $110.00. I could just set it back till I want to let go of the funds.

Greatguns · « **Reply #56 on:** November 12, 2014, 04:25:45 PM »

From what I am seeing, and the fact that you have been shooting it without any noticeable problems other than the POI, I'd say it is probably okay to shoot. Also, Given all the pics, I'd say the bend in the barrel is right in front of the gas block.

Now, it does beg the question, are you noticing any other symtoms like gas blowback or carbon build up around the tube front or back that might indicate a gas leak or bad headspace due to the bent barrel. If anything like that then I'd say park it until you get it to murray.

Greasemonkey · « **Reply #57 on:** November 12, 2014, 04:32:15 PM »

What about a shot of barrel index marks, and is there no chance the front sight is the problem?
I can't imagine a barrel be to difficult to straighten, if I can straighten a truck frame or trailer frame, a barrel ought a be a cake walk.

Looking at the extractor cut out on the barrel in the photos, it looks close, but can't say for certain.

He shooting 'dem crooked bullets

Greatguns · « **Reply #58 on:** November 12, 2014, 05:02:20 PM »

What I do for barrel straightening is a carry over from when I was a front end mechanic doing Ford I-beam cold bend alignments. Same process of hydraulically bending slightly past where the barrel/beam needs to be then letting it spring back into the proper position. The catch is determining where exactly to place the supports and contact the barrel with the press as well as if you will need to walk it out with multiple bends working down the barrel.
As to your question on it possibly being the FSB, the POI is going the wrong direction in conjunction to how the FSB abd RSB are sitting. That is what both LC and I eluded to earlier.

Loose}{Cannon · « **Reply #59 on:** November 12, 2014, 05:24:17 PM »

Yup... me thinks it has a slight bow to the left that was actually correctable with a post drift. Couldn't be more then a 16th from lug to muzzle. He dont have an elevation issue and its not noticeable by naked eye, so if there ever was one that could be straightened, this one would be it.

I say he sends it to GG.

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Author Topic: FSeries Question (Read 25650 times)