Black bayonet question

[Matchka]

Pick up this black Chicom or Russian blade ($10) at a local yard sale this morning. (Seller said it was a "genuine WWII Nazi" stabber!) Anyway, about the finish. It's definitely not a BBQ spray job. Also, has a distinct T stamped inside one of the inner collet grooves. Clues on country of origin, etc?

[Phosphorus32]

The only blued blade bayonets I know of are Russian. The ones I have are dark bluish-black. It's either one of those Russians or a well done home-blue job.

[Justin Hell]

Oh yeah...that's an Nazi stabber.   You did well.

[Cz315]

For $10 you can't go wrong. Matchka, you get these amazing deals all the time, nice job!

Personally the theory of black (blued not painted) bayonets being transitional makes a lot of sense to me. The Russian bayonet tradition required bluing on them and considering that the early bayonet was a logical extension of the Mosin M44 and no-one ever saw (to my limited knowledge) white Russian SKS spiker, it makes sense for the early blades to be blued. Some Russian sources claim it to be produced in 1950 only. We obviously see them in later refurbs, but part mixing and matching could be the reason for that. It'd be interesting to see if statistically black bayos were more prevalent in the 1950 variant vs the others. The stats might e tricky here as many variables need to be considered. Perhaps Running Man's database could be of use.

Anyway, I also recently read that the black bayos are slightly thicker and wider and their profiles are also very slightly different where the blade and the stem meet. Sort of what we saw with the gas piston. I don't have SKS's with black bayos, but perhaps you can measure them and report the measurements here to see if this claim has any merit. If true - it'd definitely give the transitional theory more credence.

[carls sks]

nice find, got to go to more yard sales.

[Matchka]

Cz315/group, I checked out a Seller on Ebay (purchased a couple of items from him awhile back), he has these black bayonets for sale on his site ($89 for a complete one). Here's his description:



Guess I did okay at ten bucks for just the blade.

[Cz315]

I actually ordered few things from him but they haven’t showed up yet. Apparently packages from Russia take months to come here. I think few others here bought from him too.

I’m not sure if I buy the “border troops” thing though.

[running-man]

Would be neat to look for statistical differences the ’50s series. Unfortunately, the bayo type (spike vs blade, and then matte, blued, painted, bright, yellow chromate etc) was something i added a bit into the data collection so all the entries don’t have this information filled out yet. I also have very few as-issued ‘50s so who can say what bayonet belongs on what gun?  . I think it would be tough to establish much of anything since bayos are so easily swapped out.

The width thing would be very interesting to track. Would need quite a few collectors with pretty accurate (calipers or better) measurements.

[Matchka]

Rooted thru my spare, non-slanted handles and found ONE that works with the lug on the only Russian that didn't have a bayonet. Note the slight difference in the shape of the handle collars. Bayonet folds nice and tight into the groove, no droop, no shimmy. 11 3/4"

[firstchoice]

Rooted thru my spare, non-slanted handles and found ONE that works with the lug on the only Russian that didn't have a bayonet. Note the slight difference in the shape of the handle collars. Bayonet folds nice and tight into the groove, no droop, no shimmy. 11 3/4"

Which one of the three collars worked for you? There's definite differences in shape between the three.

Just curious.   

firstchoice

[Matchka]

Rooted thru my spare, non-slanted handles and found ONE that works with the lug on the only Russian that didn't have a bayonet. Note the slight difference in the shape of the handle collars. Bayonet folds nice and tight into the groove, no droop, no shimmy. 11 3/4"

Which one of the three collars worked for you? There's definite differences in shape between the three.

Just curious.   

firstchoice

The one in the middle. (After I attached it to the Russian) I plain lucked out.

[Cz315]

I finally got my hands on one of those black ones and here is what I found.

The one I have is definitely different. In the next series of images I'm showing the most obvious differences. Note that even though the representative "not black" bayonet looks not the most "as-issued" I have measured all the rest I have and they had nearly identical sizes. I just didn't feel like taking them off rifles. This is the only "loose" one I had and it is representative.

1. You can't see it on the pictures but the black one is noticeably heavier. I'll weigh it in the next couple of days and will report on it.

2. The black one is thicker throughout. I chose the beginning of the blade as a reference point and it's about 1 mm thicker there.

3. The black one is wider 23 mm vs 21 mm.

4. I apologize for the crappy pictures but I hope you can see that the profile of the portion that connects the blade and the stem is different. Not super different but noticeably so.

5. The non-black one is very slightly longer.

So far the theory that the black bayonet is a different species so to speak is supported by this sample of one. The differences I see are quite pronounced and definitely well beyond the whatever error my crappy Harbor Freight calipers can introduce. Hopefully you guys can measure yours at the points I mentioned above and we can compare directly.

Also, I read somewhere that people ran into "shiny" bayonets that are slightly thicker than "usual", whatever this means. I suppose there could be another transitional bayonet after the black one, where they stopped blueing them but haven't lightened them yet.

[Matchka]

Sounds legit. Thanks for the eval and the pics. My tape measure is the best/only calibration tool I have!

[Cz315]

It's tough to tell from pics but it looks like yours is between 7/8 and 15/16 wide, consistent with 23 mm I see for mine.

[Cz315]

Rooted thru my spare, non-slanted handles and found ONE that works with the lug on the only Russian that didn't have a bayonet. Note the slight difference in the shape of the handle collars. Bayonet folds nice and tight into the groove, no droop, no shimmy. 11 3/4"

Until this post I never noticed differences in Russian early straight collars. I went back to check mine and lo and behold they are different. Interestingly the round thinner collars on mine are associated with "later" one ('52) whereas the type II or III are found on the mid-50 and laminate refurb-51 (although the latter one possibly or even likely has the original bayo - the stakes are really pronounced and likely were never moved). Makes sense in terms of simplifying the design and shaving off extra metal, I suppose.

Matchka, when you have a chance could you please post more pics of those collars, ideally from different angles?

[Matchka]

I gave two of them in trade for a magazine. 
I purchased two more Russian collars from aleks on Ebay, but they won't arrive til mid-July. Hit me up with a pm around the last week of July.