Author Topic: SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?  (Read 842 times)

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Offline SCC30Arms

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SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?
« on: May 17, 2021, 06:36:07 PM »
There appear to be many pictures and information on WW2 Russian 7.62x54r wooden ammo crates and more modern production 7.62x39 wooden ammo crates (which many appear to be intended for AK-47s).  I have seen some listings for Yugoslavian ammo boxes that held 7.62x39 in stripper clips, and that's it.  But what about wooden ammo crates that supplied 7.62x39 to Soviet troops carrying SKSs?

Has anyone ever researched this? Do we know what kind of wooden crates were used back in the late 1940s and early 1950s when the SKS was still the main arm of the Russian army? How/with what markings would those crates been marked?

Also, I should note that I do not read Russian.

Online Phosphorus32

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Re: SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2021, 11:02:24 PM »
I don't know the 1940s or 50s markings. The only pictures I can find are of 1970s to 1980s ammo imported to Canada.

образец (abbreviation, обр.; transliteration, obrazets): model or pattern. обр. 43 is what we know as M43, the original Russian 7.62x39mm cartridge.


35 x 20 round boxes per can, 2 cans per crate.


7.62 ПСгс, lacquered case. Vintage: 1971







7.62 ПСгж, copper washed case. Vintage: 1987


« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 06:55:56 AM by Phosphorus32 »

Offline SCC30Arms

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Re: SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2021, 09:21:21 PM »
That is interesting Phosphorus32. Besides the time period thing, I wonder if the markers on these differ significantly when the rounds come in stripper clips?

Offline snek

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Re: SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2021, 05:53:26 PM »
Hello,

I think I have just the resource that you're looking for. It sadly is not in English, but it's the most comprehensive study of the x39 cartridge that I've found to date. The Association Franšaise d'Etudes et de Recherche Historiques sur les Munitions (AFERHM) makes this information available for free on their website. There is a similar document for Chinese production x39 there as well. All credit to Philippe Lafargue.

 Let me know if you need anything translated!









Online firstchoice

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Re: SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2021, 06:49:45 AM »
It's always interesting to see these pools of gathered data. I wish it was all in English! Can you translate the major areas for us? Do you have a link to this website? Thanks for posting this!

firstchoice

Offline snek

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Re: SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2021, 04:47:14 AM »
It's always interesting to see these pools of gathered data. I wish it was all in English! Can you translate the major areas for us? Do you have a link to this website? Thanks for posting this!

firstchoice

The link to this specific document can be found here: https://www.aferhm.org/images/fichiers/Etudes/7.62x39/Philippe%20Lafargue%20Russie.pdf

Alternately, Lafargue's article on Chinese ammunition can be found here: https://www.aferhm.org/images/fichiers/Etudes/7.62x39/Philippe%20Lafargue%20Chine.pdf

Finally, the website for AFEHRM can be found here: https://www.aferhm.org/index.php

I will try to make a translated version of the selections I posted here when I have the chance - I hope these articles are of use to everyone :) I agree it is a shame that we can't all speak the same language.

Offline SCC30Arms

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Re: SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2021, 10:38:10 PM »
The link to this specific document can be found here: https://www.aferhm.org/images/fichiers/Etudes/7.62x39/Philippe%20Lafargue%20Russie.pdf

Alternately, Lafargue's article on Chinese ammunition can be found here: https://www.aferhm.org/images/fichiers/Etudes/7.62x39/Philippe%20Lafargue%20Chine.pdf

Finally, the website for AFEHRM can be found here: https://www.aferhm.org/index.php

I will try to make a translated version of the selections I posted here when I have the chance - I hope these articles are of use to everyone :) I agree it is a shame that we can't all speak the same language.

Thank you so much for this snek. I was actually coming on here to post something I discovered myself in relation to all this, so snek's findings were a big happy surprise.

Here is what I found though, just to add to things:
From the book "Kalashnikov: The Arms and the Man, a Revised and Expanded Edition of The AK47 Story" by Edward Clinton Ezell, (Cobourg, Ontario, Canada) Collector Grade Publications, 2001.

The picture itself is on page 212. This is exactly what I have been looking for. Russian standard ball ammo, with clips, from the 1950s. One thing I've been struggling to figure out in particular is if there was a marking for having clips, and according to this there is.  On page 213, it says there was a Cyrillic phase "in clips" on these boxes. By the way, what is the abbreviation next to the number of rounds, (as in, what do the letters actually mean/stand for in Russian)?
Here is the relevant section from page 213:


In response to snek's finding (which are amazing), since I'm going for 1950s ball ammo with clips, it looks like for the top of the crate I'm looking for would have the double triangle with XIV inside the inner triangle and 29kr for the weight (see upper left image of box on page 47 of snek's pdf). For the markings on the side of the box, it looks like the image of the box on the upper left corner of page 51 of snek's pdf is what I want. I'm trying to make out what the Russian Cyrillic phrase for "in clips" is.

This helps so much with my project. Thank you snek and all.


Offline snek

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Re: SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2021, 09:47:05 PM »
@SCC30Arms,

The term you are looking for for 'On clips' is "В ОБОЙМАХ" on the first cardboard box on Page 34 labelled:

"ПАТРОНЫ ОБР. 43
КАЛИБРА 7.62мм
20 шт. В ОБОЙМАХ"

"Ammunition, Model 43
Calibre 7.62mm
20 pieces, on clips."

However, I just so happened to pick up a crate of Ulyanovsk 1952 surplus (not on clips) yesterday, so my timing here is excellent to provide contrast:



What kind of project are you working on, if you don't mind me asking?

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Re: SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2021, 11:55:05 PM »

By the way, what is the abbreviation next to the number of rounds, (as in, what do the letters actually mean/stand for in Russian)?

It would appear from the 1957 Dept of the Army Glossary of Soviet Military & Related Abbreviations that шт is short for штукa which translates into "piece" (though Mr Google wants to call штук "pieces" and штукa "thing"):

      

Offline snek

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Re: SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2021, 03:45:04 AM »

By the way, what is the abbreviation next to the number of rounds, (as in, what do the letters actually mean/stand for in Russian)?

It would appear from the 1957 Dept of the Army Glossary of Soviet Military & Related Abbreviations that шт is short for штукa which translates into "piece" (though Mr Google wants to call штук "pieces" and штукa "thing"):


Штукa and штук are conjugated with штук being the genitive plural, and штукa the singular nominative - so while штукa might mean "one piece" in context (like in the 1957 glossary,) it gets translated as "a thing" out of context by Google. In this case "штук" is correct for 'pieces' or 'rounds' that are written on the crate.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 03:50:04 AM by snek »

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Re: SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2021, 12:29:03 PM »
Штукa and штук are conjugated with штук being the genitive plural, and штукa the singular nominative - so while штукa might mean "one piece" in context (like in the 1957 glossary,) it gets translated as "a thing" out of context by Google. In this case "штук" is correct for 'pieces' or 'rounds' that are written on the crate.

Nice!  Got my Cyrillic lesson for today, makes total sense now.  How interesting that the additional letter at the end indicates the singular.  Opposite of what we typically see in the Romance languages.   Thanks man!  thumb1
      

Offline SCC30Arms

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Re: SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2021, 03:20:35 PM »
What kind of project are you working on, if you don't mind me asking?

I though I put something in the first post starting the thread, but I guess I forgot to. I'm making an ammo crate for 7.62x39 ammo in clips. It will have markings for standard ball ammo from 1950. Inside, there will be slots for the individual clips to stand up in. Its to go along with the two SKS carbines I own. Making it just for me (at least for now), and I've made a similar ammo box for en bloc clips for my M1 Garands.

Offline Matchka

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Re: SKS 7.62x39 ammo crates - markings/crate appearance?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2021, 03:41:49 PM »
Tak & ochin harasho! Crates and cases, all in one thread! Well done, snek!