CIA 1954 report on the SKS, AK47, and (stetchkin?)

[Boris Badinov]

This was shared on the other sks site.

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP82-00046R000500020007-7.pdf

It states that there were both blade and spike bayonets but only mentions 1951 and 1953 dated rifles. Likely a mistake. As is SKS43 model designation, and the claim that the AK47 is a SMG replacement for the Ppsh.

The secrecy around the new cartridge is interesting too. Given that it is written in 1954 can we assume that the SKS and AK were not used in the Korean war?

[Greatguns]

Now that's an interesting read.

I had always thought the SKS was a replacement for the bolt action rifles since it had been demonstrated that combat had evolved and was taking place within a 200 yd range and fire superiority was desired. And they needed something to compete with the German M43 and STG 44 rifles.

[Justin Hell]

That was interesting!
I am kinda interested in the 7.62x39 pistol with the wooden holster.

[Boris Badinov]

That was interesting!
I am kinda interested in the 7.62x39 pistol with the wooden holster.

Other than the caliber, it sure sounds like a Stechkin with the wooden holster that functions  like a broom-handle stock.

Maybe the caliber is an inaccurate reporting.

[Larry D.]

Likely 7.62 X 25.

[Phosphorus32]

Definitely interesting, thanks for sharing!  A lot of observational mistakes which isn't too surprising.

It must be the Stechkin (APS), even though it's chambered in 9x18 and the magazine capacity is 20 rounds.

Given the level of secrecy (assuming that part is right), I'm sure neither the AK-47 or SKS-45 was used in the Korean War. The AK-47 production was still going through growing pains with the QC issues on the original stamped version and the milled versions just getting started during the Korean War. I'm sure the Soviets wouldn't have given their "latest and greatest" to their communist Chinese or Korean "brethren", especially if it was still falling short of the "greatest" part on the AK 

[Larry D.]

Interesting to note that the report was classified for 50 years.

Reading through it, I sorta got the idea that the kidnapped Soviet soldier was either a defector, or was grabbed by the CIA. Some that reads as if it was a narrative. Like the guy was giving up information that "revengeful Austrians" likely couldn't have cared less about.
I wonder what state he lived out his new identity in.......

[Phosphorus32]

Interesting to note that the report was classified for 50 years.

The 50 years is just one of the standard declassification time periods (25, 50, 75), after which the documents are eligible for declassification. It wasn't until Executive Order 13526 that declassification became "automatic" (with multiple exceptions for risks to human sources, cryptography security etc.).

Reading through it, I sorta got the idea that the kidnapped Soviet soldier was either a defector, or was grabbed by the CIA. Some that reads as if it was a narrative. Like the guy was giving up information that "revengeful Austrians" likely couldn't have cared less about.
I wonder what state he lived out his new identity in.......

Yeah, interesting thoughts on the defector/abductee 

[running-man]

There are a bunch of very interesting CIA reports out there on the SKS.

Here's a page from a different report that talks about the the various new Soviet weapons and their first documentation.  '54 is the generally accepted date that the west first verifiably saw the SKS according to all the declassified CIA docs I've seen. 



I'll have to get a section set up in the members area that has a central library of all this stuff.  There are a few that are very good reads...

[Boris Badinov]

The extreme secrecy surrounding the M43 7.62 ammo, even as late as 1954-55, seems to contradict the oft-bandied claims that the sks saw  combat in WW2.

Doesn't it?

[Greatguns]

The extreme secrecy surrounding the M43 7.62 ammo, even as late as 1954-55, seems to contradict the oft-bandied claims that the sks saw  combat in WW2.

Doesn't it?

Not necessarily, if the Germans weren't in a position to share what they were being shot at with. I do agree though, if the Soviets were being secretive about it, it would seem unlikely they would use it in front line battle. Maybe tested it out on some poor German getting executed.

[echo83]

What a cool find, thanks for sharing!

With the prevalence of corrosive primers, what I thought was truly interesting was the avoidance of bore cleaner, as there was a fear it would corrode the barrel...And in the same report, soldiers were told that chrome-lined bores wouldn't corrode? And that soap and water were unheard of?

So what did they put in the second compartment of their oil bottles, and what did they actually use to clean? 

Well, the Soviets did get one thing right: at least the soldiers were issued a *cough* CLEANING KIT *cough* with their new rifle.

[Boris Badinov]

 
Not necessarily, if the Germans weren't in a position to share what they were being shot at with. I do agree though, if the Soviets were being secretive about it, it would seem unlikely they would use it in front line battle. Maybe tested it out on some poor German getting executed.

I agree.

However,  a lodged bullet in a wounded German is one simple way to "capture" a secret, prototype bullet.

As well, testing a prototype battle rifle risks capture of the firearm  should the soldier to whom it was issued gets killed in action.

Whenever the claim is made that the SKS saw use in battle, the suggesti9n is that it was at the very end of WW2-- which would put the rifle very close to the western battle front and US, English and French forces.  Yet Western intelligence only learns about the new weapons and ammo a full decade after the war ended.

[Greatguns]

 
Not necessarily, if the Germans weren't in a position to share what they were being shot at with. I do agree though, if the Soviets were being secretive about it, it would seem unlikely they would use it in front line battle. Maybe tested it out on some poor German getting executed.

I agree.

However,  a lodged bullet in a wounded German is one simple way to "capture" a secret, prototype bullet.

As well, testing a prototype battle rifle risks capture of the firearm  should the soldier to whom it was issued gets killed in action.

Whenever the claim is made that the SKS saw use in battle, the suggesti9n is that it was at the very end of WW2-- which would put the rifle very close to the western battle front and US, English and French forces.  Yet Western intelligence only learns about the new weapons and ammo a full decade after the war ended.

On the wounded German, do you think they would take the time to differentiate between the x39 projectile and the slightly longer x54r?

Still, if production got shelved until '49 it DOES make more sense that they would find out about it when the CIA and Military advisers were working at the end of the Korean War and into the IndoChina conflict(Viet Nam). Which, realistically, they went straight there after Korea. That puts it into the '54-'55 time frame of the CIA report.

[Greasemonkey]

Ok.... Just to throw it out there.... While the x39 was being tested behind everyone's back in Mother Russia's super secret labs..... there is one other round that was possibly fielded, studied, tested and tried, the 7.62x41 M43 ammo... maybe before Korea I would imagine that the x41 could be what would be found.. after Korea the x39. 

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&u=http://coollib.com/b/195891/read&usg=ALkJrhjjrwSf-olcPmIw0A5pDx7nMjLp8A#t1

http://www.cartridgecollector.net/762-x-41-m43-pre-ak-xpl
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/7-62x41mm/1621
https://www.gunboards.com/threads/pre-49-sks-rifles.248215/
https://www.gunboards.com/threads/7-62x41-cartridge-pre-sks-rifle-and-the-the-history-of-russian-machine.499993/
61717

Like I said... Just throwing it out there... 

[echo83]

 
Not necessarily, if the Germans weren't in a position to share what they were being shot at with. I do agree though, if the Soviets were being secretive about it, it would seem unlikely they would use it in front line battle. Maybe tested it out on some poor German getting executed.

I agree.

However,  a lodged bullet in a wounded German is one simple way to "capture" a secret, prototype bullet.

As well, testing a prototype battle rifle risks capture of the firearm  should the soldier to whom it was issued gets killed in action.

Whenever the claim is made that the SKS saw use in battle, the suggesti9n is that it was at the very end of WW2-- which would put the rifle very close to the western battle front and US, English and French forces.  Yet Western intelligence only learns about the new weapons and ammo a full decade after the war ended.

Fair point, although it wouldn't be the first time the West was surprised by a Soviet small arms platform.

I recently finished "The Gun," by C.J. Chivers,  Marine vet and small arms expert/historian. It tracks, among other developments, the rise of the AK 47.

It is alarming how out to lunch we were about the AK, and how slow we were to react to it. I highly recommend the book, it's a fascinating read.

[running-man]

The extreme secrecy surrounding the M43 7.62 ammo, even as late as 1954-55, seems to contradict the oft-bandied claims that the sks saw  combat in WW2.

Doesn't it?

I think it's been shown in various recent Russian works that the "SKS" fielded in WWII was actually chambered in 7.62x54R (designated the "SVS-53") and the design changed a good bit around 1944 due to new requirements handed down from the Main Artillery Directorate of the Red Army.  The cartridge was changed to the 1943 version of the 7.62 intermediate round (7.62x39) and I've also read that trials were also conducted in 1945 with rounds of 7.62x41 as well.

[Boris Badinov]

The extreme secrecy surrounding the M43 7.62 ammo, even as late as 1954-55, seems to contradict the oft-bandied claims that the sks saw  combat in WW2.

Doesn't it?

I think it's been shown in various recent Russian works that the "SKS" fielded in WWII was actually chambered in 7.62x54R (designated the "SVS-53") and the design changed a good bit around 1944 due to new requirements handed down from the Main Artillery Directorate of the Red Army.  The cartridge was changed to the 1943 version of the 7.62 intermediate round (7.62x39) and I've also read that trials were also conducted in 1945 with rounds of 7.62x41 as well.

Regardless of the ammo that was used or even the design variant, testing the rifle in combat carries a high degree of risk of the rifle falling into unwanted hands-- either from the death of the soldier carrying the rifle or, as in the Austrian episode, double-agency, defection, or desertion.

Reading the CIA report-- the secrecy and OCD-like counting, tracking and recovery of every spent casing suggests that such a risk was not one the soviets were willing to take.

To me it just doesn't make a lot of sense. Why risk exposing new weapons development at the very end of a war which they were very soon to win? Fielding the weapon (and the ammo) ran the very real risk of revealing the prototypes to the western Allies (and soon to be Cold War enemies).

[Greasemonkey]

On the other hand, one testing ground for Russia may have been the Finnish Wars, the Winter War 1939-40 and the Continuation War 1941-1944,  both taking place during WWII. Plus, the random skirmishes in-between those two wars that aren't documented. As I recall, the CIA.... Or at the time, the OSS and the US govt were not at all involved in the Finnish conflicts... so any odd caliber captured weapons would have been left for the Finnish to decipher, or rip apart and make it useful. That would be a perfect weapon test platform.. extreme cold, guerilla warfare, no capitalist pigs snooping. The most the US may have done is offer supplies...but even then, we were tapped out by dealing with Germany and Japan in the '39-'45 timeframe.

[Boris Badinov]

NO disrespect intended. But the Finnish hyptothesis also doesn't make sense.

The Finns captured many thousands of Mosins, Ppsh's, Nagants etc, and not a single SKSof any year designation?