Why so many crossbolt stamps (left and right) on Canadian imports?

[Boris Badinov]

I've noticed that a lot of the Canadian SKS45's have multiple crossbolt stamps on both sides of the stock.

Anyone care to opine, or conjecture why this is seemingly more common on the guns up north than on the 45's in the US?

[Loose}{Cannon]

Because they were in storage longer and ultimately inspected more often?

[Boris Badinov]

Because they were in storage longer and ultimately inspected more often?

Definite possibility. Most plausible, actually. 

However....

It's odd how in the US market I regularly see 45s in much higher, even pristinely condition, with only 3 or 4 left side crossbolt stamps and zero on the right side.

But so many of the CDN 45s have multiple, stamps on both sides. So many stamps. Also, the larger size of the stamps is odd

I guess it may have to do not only with length of storage, but also where it was stored-- i.e. source nation.

[Justin Hell]

Is it possible that someone in Canada has a complete set of Russian armorers stamps? I mean...just this week RM found conclusive evidence of shenanigans with a 49 stock...while in country. Where a Westrifle 49 was pictured with a xxxed out refurb stock...only for it to miraculously shed it's xxxed out serials for a proper serial and a 49 Tula stamp later...on the same stock.   This seems to remove Albania from the suspect list, as some speculated once so many nice 49s seemed to be popping up.

On the ones you have noticed...who was the importer/dealer?  I haven't seen this yet, but also wasn't looking. Now I will be.

[Boris Badinov]

Given the Molot availability up north, I'm curious if any of the non-molot guns went through a similar pre-iexport, commercial re-furb process-- like we see evidence of with many of the pre-ban type 56's.

I've been looking at photos on Canadian forums.
High condition carbines, many with stamps galore. Sometimes twice as many on the right crossbolt than on the left.

[running-man]

I was thinking that too Justin.  If they do it with one, why not do it with others?

We probably need to get a tracking thread going with crossbolt stamps from different years and see where that leads us.  I have been saving many nice examples from prime gold standard guns for a good while now for just this purpose but haven't had the real desire to do it yet; I have so many irons in the fire, inevitably some get kicked to the curb.

It would not be terribly difficult to log what stamps occur on what carbines and then see if a pattern develops.  If we can find no pattern, it would be a pretty good indication that LC is correct with his "already issued and still being inspected" hypothesis.  I would suspect that if they are only put on during initial build, they will group around years. (for example square 1's on the right crossbolt occur on post '57 guns while diamond A's on the left only happen on 53 Izhevsks...etc.) 

We can only begin to answer Boris's question once the data comes in and we can see a pattern start to develop with respect to these stamps in general I think.  Even then, we may not be able to make any earth shattering discoveries here, they are pretty arcane symbols on old guns that nobody knows the true meaning of.  You never know until you try though. 

[Greasemonkey]

Id someone there can.......fudge the Tula stamps... why not crossbolt stamps?

[Justin Hell]

It makes me think back to a couple of stocks I bought from Canada. The seller, who isn't known for detailed descriptions always includes this statement. "This stock has NOT been refinished since leaving Russian arsenals"

I find that odd...perhaps he knows something about the behind the scenes activity in Canada by the importers. He was/is pulling apart perfectly good guns for parts sales...in quantity, and has been for a couple of years at least. So I am fairly certain he is getting them close to an import source...if not directly. I am really curious what happens to the receivers...I doubt so many SKSs could be on the slate for destruction via court order, or if that even happens in Canada. It makes you wonder if we might start seeing scrubbed and restamped receivers before long.

I only recall seeing crossbolt stamps on the left side, but wasn't looking very closely...did the occasional right side stamp happen on any US imported SKS-45s?

Another thing discovered in Canada are the Tula star etching kits...which make you wonder how many late SKSs with blank covers went on to don a fake star to fit onto some assembly coddled together and made to look pretty and matching.

[running-man]

I would guess that they may turn them into those ridiculous Kodiak Defense SKS-15's justin.  If they do part them out fully, I've seen barreked receivers and all sorts of individual piece parts available from many sites in Canada.  I wonder if it's more cost effective to do this than to keep poor condition specimens whole?


We have numerous examples of right crossbolt stamps in the states, nothing nee therewwwsa. 

[Justin Hell]

I would guess that they may turn them into those ridiculous Kodiak Defense SKS-15's justin.  If they do part them out fully, I've seen barreked receivers and all sorts of individual piece parts available from many sites in Canada.  I wonder if it's more cost effective to do this than to keep poor condition specimens whole?


We have numerous examples of right crossbolt stamps in the states, nothing nee therewwwsa. 

While I get the gist....just checking to see if you had a stroke or somethin' 

I forgot about those Kodiak Defense things...but I thought those were just restocked, and altered barreled receivers. But yeah...there are quite a few places selling parts, and the prices have increased substantially over the last two years...they know they have a goldmine for the hungry US market.

[running-man]

Laugh. That's what happens when i need to end a post quickly because we are heading out the door! 

Should have read "nothing new there." 

[Boris Badinov]

Do original letter gun,  laminate stocks exhibit this trait of multiple left and right side crossbolt stamps?

[Boris Badinov]

I only recall seeing crossbolt stamps on the left side, but wasn't looking very closely...did the occasional right side stamp happen on any US imported SKS-45s?

I've seen them in the US market. I own one with some right side crossbolt stamps, too. Only three, and very faint: https://preview.ibb.co/bT5JAU/20180914_142626.jpg

[Boris Badinov]

One of the forum members on the nutz forum made a very interesting observation / suggestion regarding the specific placement of the stock proofs around the crossbolt holes:

"They are technical stamps indicating that cross bolt hole is done correctly and in the right spot for that particular stock"

This observation makes a lot of sense, as even a fraction of an inch of migration of the crossbolt due to shrink and stretch from warping, and the stock will not accommodate a barreled action.

Which lead me to the question: Would a stock that has already been paired with a barreled action need to be inspected for proper crossbolt placement? Seems as if the answer would be: NO.  Because, once paired with a stock, the barreled action is a like a shoe-stretcher, mitigating warp, and thereby maintaining the proper alignment of the crossbolt

However, unpaired stock blanks that went straight into storage would require regular QC inspection to check for stock warp, and crossbolt placement or migration. The more crossbolt stamps on a given stock blank, the more times it has been removed from storage for re-inspection and possible re-finish, and the more time it spent in storage before it was finally paired with a barreled action.

From there, one need only count the number of crossbolt stamps to estimate the amount of time that a given stock was in storage before it was paired with a barreled action.

[This is just a hypothesis, but it makes some sense. Feel free to point out why it does or does not make sense]

[running-man]

"They are technical stamps indicating that cross bolt hole is done correctly and in the right spot for that particular stock"

I don't think that holds water at all. Why do they need anywhere from 4-8 stamps to indicate the crossbolt is in the right spot?!

I honestly think they are qc stamps. Whether from production, storage inspection, or refurbishment is certainly up for debate, but it sure seems like the nice as-issued guns have many crisp ones while the heavy furbs have few sanded and/or shellac covered ones.

[Boris Badinov]

"They are technical stamps indicating that cross bolt hole is done correctly and in the right spot for that particular stock"

I don't think that holds water at all. Why do they need anywhere from 4-8 stamps to indicate the crossbolt is in the right spot?!

I honestly think they are qc stamps. Whether from production, storage inspection, or refurbishment is certainly up for debate, but it sure seems like the nice as-issued guns have many crisp ones while the heavy furbs have few sanded and/or shellac covered ones.

Why stamp at the crossbolt then?  The fact that the stamps appear specifically at the crossbolt is significant. Couple that with the fact that crossbolt placement is  crucial for stock fit-- i.e. a crossbolt that has shifted position over time due to warp could very easily render a stock useless. 

Once in place, a barreled action mitigates warp and prevents shifting of the crossbolt.

I have also become increasingly wary of the terms "non refurb," "original conditio,n" and "as issued" -- to the point that I use them in italics or place them in quotes as a reminder that these terms are far from definitive, and really only gauges (reached via consensus) of the overall condition of any given piece.

[Greasemonkey]

Why stamp at the crossbolt then?  The fact that the stamps appear specifically at the crossbolt is significant. Couple that with the fact that crossbolt placement is  crucial for stock fit-- i.e. a crossbolt that has shifted position over time due to warp could very easily render a stock useless. 

Once in place, a barreled action mitigates warp and prevents shifting of the crossbolt.

I have also become increasingly wary of the terms "non refurb," "original conditio,n" and "as issued" -- to the point that I use them in italics or place them in quotes as a reminder that these terms are far from definitive, and really only gauges (reached via consensus) of the overall condition of any given piece.

Now.. granted it's apples to oranges..but it shares some commonalities... I own many rifles that are close to twice the age of an SKS,  Mosins particularly come to mind. Know how many have been affected by a crossbolt moving over time.. none. If crossbolt moving were an issue, then why didn't the Finnish who ripped apart and salvaged Russian weaponry to manufacture their own and who make the vaulted and accurate M39 make a huge deal out of it. If a rifle is going to loosen and hammer on a crossbolt, the x54r round would do it, maybe the wood, nope, the Russian Mosin uses an arctic birch like an SKS, same shellac finish as well.

Why didn't other nations worry about the crossbolt mysteriously moving? Did no other nation care enough to make a deal out of it.... Romania, nope, Yugoslavia, nope, China, nope, Albania nope...the Trinity makers, nope, nope, nope. If one was going to, why didn't China, given how close they "supposedly" followed the Russians?

Wouldn't Russian Mosin crossbolts been subjective to the same Russian inspections while in the same Russian storage? Compare a kind of spindly long Mosin stock to a shorter thicker SKS stock, which would be more prone to twist and warpage?

Is or was there some kind of failure rate with Russian SKS stocks/crossbolts exclusively that possibly don't affect the other ump-teen thousands made by other nations that warrants crossbolt examinations. Or, while there is maybe known failures, the rest of the makers don't deem it a signifiant enough failure rate to worry with?  Is this why so many Russians are found frequently restocked?

If crossbolt inspections were so important, how come laminates with 2 crossbolts don't have stamps around the rear crossbolt? My understanding is it strengthens the stock to prevent splitting at the wrist, so if it were loose, in theory you could split a stock and in turn loose a weapon on the field of battle.

[Boris Badinov]

One marked difference between MN and the SKS being that Mosins were pressed into service almost literally as they came off the line. Whereas the sks45's were not. Not only did many of the sks45's seemingly end up straight into storage, but so would have the stockpiles of excess parts and stocks.

Keep in mind that my hypothesis implies the existence of a fairly large excess  of hardwood stocks. It is the unused stocks that I am positing as the recipients of excessive numbers of crossbolt stamps.



Anecdotally, I have one m59 stock and one Soviet laminate stock. The barreled action from the M59 I no longer own would fit into the surplus m59 stock because of an improper fit at the crossbolt.

Similarly, the Soviet laminate stock would not accommodate a Russian action (Or an early Chinese action) because of improper fit at the crossbolt. 

[Greasemonkey]

The M44 was produced in Russia until 1948.. highly doubtful it saw service, Some Finnish M39s were produced in 1967-1970, some even as late as 1973.


If I knew exactly where my Russians were.. I'd go try mixing and matching......but, alas, recent upcoming life changes have caused my piles to become scattered and discombobulated.

[Justin Hell]

I would tend to think that the reasoning for the placement at the crossbolt area would be simply because that would be the first place you would look when picking one up as a 'normal' right handed person would. Hands of a right handed person would tend to use the right to grab the butt end, left for the fore end....its the first place you would naturally look. Seems like a perfect spot for easiest viewing....of say a final inspection stamping after assembly, and subsequent follow up inspections while in storage.  If they were kept in cosmoline, additional inspections were probably minor had they not been in service...smear away a little cosmo, stamp it again....back in the crate.

Perhaps though, the placement of the stamps indicate approval of certain portions in the vicinity. Stamps in the 9 o'clock position for one inspection point....noon for another....etc.  Run out of spots on the left for marks...move on to the right side so the location of the stamps can be correct for whatever they are assigned to...an reinspect away. Perhaps one of the marks DID have something to do with the crossbolt.  I would think if it were a storage of unused stocks situation...they would have stamped the inside, near the crossbolt...why stamp the outside of something for fitment when there isn't anything on the inside of it yet?  With regards to the expansion/contraction of stocks and their crossbolt placements from gun to gun...I think the nature of wood vs. metal and the amount of crucial contact points in an SKS for a good fit just tend to give a bit of a variance from one stock to one barreled receiver to another. 

Essentially, the SKS is a hard gun to go full blown Eli Whitney on. 

Throw in a little time, and the stocks may 'cure to fit' variances so that fifty some odd years later, fitting from one to another is a bit of a crap shoot.

Other countries did not tend to mark these giving any indication of concern of the crossbolt location...otherwise it would be a hell of a lot easier to eyeball a pinned vs. threaded Chinese.  Whereas, the Chinese did occasionally stamp that same area on the stock...but only one...giving the impression that it likely was an approval for the stock alone, or more likely...a final assembly inspection. 

The left side of the stock, around the crossbolt area would seem to get less handling as well...so the stamps could remain legible for longer....maybe?

Just my uneducated .02 cents o' speculation.