1949 Russian Demilled photos

[Justin Hell]

A guy I have been working with on eBay from Siberia hooked me up with a few links to some interesting stuff on the Russian internet...(theirs is special. )

This appeared to be something akin to a Craigslist ad, selling a number of 1949 'Needle' bayonet 1949 Tulas.

Things abound to notice...most of what I notice is that none of the restocked ones got new stock retaining ferrules, except maybe the top one...but, it is bottom pinned, despite appearing to be the larger version that should only be top pinned.  They whittled away at the stock rather than replace them...even during heavy refurb. Further lending to my thought that some 49s came bladed.  Perhaps those rare polished black blades were originally for late 49s, and got mixed around over the years...yet their scarcity may reflect a reason...the rifles they originally were on were equally as scarce...ah, more speculation. In an upcoming post I am still working on, it seems to indicate that the military had some say in the design of the SKS...and they preferred the look of the blade vs. the spike...I digress.

Another thing I noticed is how ill fitting the refurbed stocks are. I think this is because of the design of the 49. The cross bolt in the laminate I bought doesn't even come close to meeting up...and is ill fitting at the stock retainer and at the recess for the trigger group. Filing the stock to fit better, from behind the trigger group, would tighten it up front and in the FCG recess, but would move the bolt even further from where it should be for a proper fit.  It seems the same is the case with these...none of them look right in the laminates.  A late two piece stock I have also is ill fitting in regard to the cross bolt, better...but still not right.  It is nice to notice that they did sand the blade hump out of the stocks to match the contour the original spike stocks had...should I keep the laminate on mine...I will feel less bad about taking a belt sander to it. 

Another thing to notice, of the three laminates...all were only serialed once. So they were fit only to the gun they reside on...and still...they are not right.  One of these also has a later two piece refurb stock, that had been on a previous gun. Meaning these were refurbed far into their career...yet retained all the original goodies...aside from stocks, and the one mismatched, scrubbed, and restamped 53 cover in there. Several of the parts have been scrubbed to match...but all the early features on the barrel remain.

Hopefully these are new serials to add to the pool. If anyone else notices anything or has anything to add to my speculation...feel free to add or refute it, I am learning here too.

Keep in mind that while this is gun porn, it is the specially naughty kind....this is a snuff series, it is difficult to tell that these have been demilled until the final photos. What...for 14k Rubles...what did you expect?

[Greasemonkey]

Interesting.. I don't really keep up with the Russian side, ok...... Mosins  , SKSs , but it is curious.  So many questions..
Somewhere I read the blued blades were first after the spike, I'm trying to find that source, it was a long time ago.   It kind of would make sense, go from blued spikes to blued blades, then to chrome blades.
Just for giggles when exactly did Russia master chrome plating, were SKS/Ak bores done first or bayonets? Also, the very first Russian Ak bores were not chromed, I've seen that quoted as '50-'51 time frame as well.
Was the blade bayonet an afterthought in the design? I find it kind of funny Russia went from the spike and adopted the blade as the final design, China started with blade and went back the other direction to the spike as the final design?

[Justin Hell]

Interesting.. I don't really keep up with the Russian side, ok...... Mosins  , SKSs , but it is curious.  So many questions..
Somewhere I read the blued blades were first after the spike, I'm trying to find that source, it was a long time ago.   It kind of would make sense, go from blued spikes to blued blades, then to chrome blades.
Just for giggles when exactly did Russia master chrome plating, were SKS/Ak bores done first or bayonets? Also, the very first Russian Ak bores were not chromed, I've seen that quoted as '50-'51 time frame as well.
Was the blade bayonet an afterthought in the design? I find it kind of funny Russia went from the spike and adopted the blade as the final design, China started with blade and went back the other direction to the spike as the final design?

I recall reading that the blued blades came first somewhere too. I just don't think anyone attributed specifically when they first appeared. As jumbled up as things seem to get during refurbs...they have the highest likelihood of being separated from their original homes of all the bayonets one would think.

I think the high polished chrome bayonets appeared before the matte ones, so they appeared first in 1950, before bore chroming. Probably easier to master on a surface you can see.

Personally, I think the SKS is better suited with a spike. I have gathered that the military either thought they were more imposing/cool looking with a blade, and that weighed into things. I am still working on that translation to get a better idea about that. The Chinese reverting back to it seems like a good idea to me. Aside from a more devastating wound, the general appearance of the weapon is more concise...and I think they are easier to handle. The comments below the ad are kind of funny though...everybody seemed to want the 'flat' bayonet instead.

Must be a cultural thing...nah, everybody thinks the blades look cooler. Practicality is a non-issue....I think after so many years of spikes, they wanted change.

[pcke2000]

Justin, very cool pictures and observation. Thank you very much for sharing!

BTW, is the guy able to find a spike bayonet stock and sell it to you?

[Greasemonkey]

I recall reading that the blued blades came first somewhere too. I just don't think anyone attributed specifically when they first appeared. As jumbled up as things seem to get during refurbs...they have the highest likelihood of being separated from their original homes of all the bayonets one would think.

I think the high polished chrome bayonets appeared before the matte ones, so they appeared first in 1950, before bore chroming. Probably easier to master on a surface you can see.

Personally, I think the SKS is better suited with a spike. I have gathered that the military either thought they were more imposing/cool looking with a blade, and that weighed into things. I am still working on that translation to get a better idea about that. The Chinese reverting back to it seems like a good idea to me. Aside from a more devastating wound, the general appearance of the weapon is more concise...and I think they are easier to handle. The comments below the ad are kind of funny though...everybody seemed to want the 'flat' bayonet instead.

Must be a cultural thing...nah, everybody thinks the blades look cooler. Practicality is a non-issue....I think after so many years of spikes, they wanted change.

On the earliest Aks, bayonets were not a designed part of the weapon, somewhere in the "chrome" time frame they designed and adopted to it. One thing that I always found interesting is the appearance/design of the blade.




Up until the Ak/SKS blade design, the only other blade bayonets fielded by Russia was used on the AVS followed by the SVT, every other bayonet was spike form factor. And just a piece of trivia, the SVT blade shares two things, it's blade design is shared with both the Ak and SKS, and the blade length almost matches the SKS at 9 or so inches long. Should note also, they are typically blued 

[Justin Hell]

Whoa...that is interesting. I don't know much at all about AKs, much less their bayonets. I didn't know that...and the time frame kind of goes with the trend. Meanwhile in America...all the cars had fins...and the spike bayonet equipment was making it's slow trek to Chinah. 

It is kind of uncanny how similar those bayonets resemble the SKS blade huh?

I am about to attempt to join a Russian gun board where I found tiny pictures of the SKS spike in detail, serial number detail...and a look at what is under the handle too. I wonder how much weird **** is going to end up in my inbox in Cyrillic along with the confirmation email. I wonder if I will be confirming membership or 'accidentally' ordering up a spare wife.

Justin, very cool pictures and observation. Thank you very much for sharing!

BTW, is the guy able to find a spike bayonet stock and sell it to you?

Thanks!
I mentioned it to him...but I am pretty sure he still thinks I am trying to get him to send me a bayonet...which he keeps going on about how he won't break the law. I asked him about a bayonet handle...he said he had to shovel snow and go out to the garage to see if he could find one. I made a little mention about the state of our two nation's affairs...he said he was a 50 year old man in Siberia and has been waiting for mass media since the fall of Communism. I take that as he is on dial up.    I am reading all of this in a Russian accent in my mind's ear...and laughing my ass off. I haven't gotten back to him for a few days, been a little busy with what he has sent already!  I am also kind of holding off to send a photo of the 49, which will be complete (well, functional) once the sight I am getting from him arrives tomorrow. Hopefully that will fire him up to keep his eyes peeled for a stock for me.....before this lammy gets it!. 

[newchi]

I assumed they started with the spike as the mosin had a spike and they were tooled for it in larger  numbers.  I admit i have never compared a mosin bayonet and a russian sks spike to see if its the same profile though.

[Greasemonkey]

I assumed they started with the spike as the mosin had a spike and they were tooled for it in larger  numbers.  I admit i have never compared a mosin bayonet and a russian sks spike to see if its the same profile though.

I have the measurements of the M44 compared to a Chinese Type 56 in another thread, the shank measurements are close.. if one were to get or could get actual measurements of the '49 spike to compare against the M44, even some photos thrown in of the shank/collar ect. that would be great. 

[running-man]

It is kind of uncanny how similar those bayonets resemble the SKS blade huh?

I am about to attempt to join a Russian gun board where I found tiny pictures of the SKS spike in detail, serial number detail...and a look at what is under the handle too. I wonder how much weird **** is going to end up in my inbox in Cyrillic along with the confirmation email. I wonder if I will be confirming membership or 'accidentally' ordering up a spare wife.

Why reinvent the wheel?  They could produce them in quantity and had specialized machinery available.  It actually surprises me that the spike won out over the blade in the early runs seeing as the SVTs appeared to field them successfully.  Maybe it was a high level decision like the fixed mag was?

The .ru web is an interesting place.  Keep your virus checker up to date and don't click on links you havent translated and you'll be ok. 

I pulled photos of the 5 or so guns you found for the database.  I've gotten photos exactly like these from the guns.ru marketplace, just hadn't seen these particular ones.  This seller must have a pretty good sized operation.  I want to cry every time I see a ММГ marked gun, but the laws in Russia are the laws in Russia. 

I had to do a double take on the '53 cover of BM716.  The two line S/N tipped me off before the "1953" did actually.     
That single line S/N is a very consistent '49 feature. 

Nice work Justin, try not to cause an international incident! 

[Greasemonkey]

Nice work Justin, try not to cause an international incident! 

RM, it's just Justin..... not GM    the world is safe 

I have since found the Ak adopted the bayonet in the '51 time frame...right at about the time of chrome bores starting on both.. '49-'51 time must have been a very busy hectic time in the factories with the number of changes put in place. Figure chrome bores started on both weapon systems, spike to blade transition on the SKS, adding the bayonet to the Ak plus known revisions/updates to the rifle, refurb processes starting/cranking up of most of Russia's small arms, the small parts manufacture of the various arms etc, the Makarov PM went into production in 1951, plus if Justin is correct, possibly even setting China up for Type 53 production.

[running-man]

Korean war had quite a bit to with it I believe.  The Russians and Chinese both knew they dodged a bullet when Truman relieved MacArthur and his quest to put the screws to China.

[reddragon23]

Going off memory from reading something, but I think the Ruskies changed from spike to blade bayonets because they agreed to sign the  Geneva Convention of 1949:

That a ban is placed on serrated and angular bayonets, because the wounds left behind place undue suffering that persists even after the conflict has been resolved.

China never signed Geneva agreement, so spike bayonets they use.  Anyone military historians on the forum know for sure?

[Greasemonkey]

Going off memory from reading something, but I think the Ruskies changed from spike to blade bayonets because they agreed to sign the  Geneva Convention of 1949:

That a ban is placed on serrated and angular bayonets, because the wounds left behind place undue suffering that persists even after the conflict has been resolved.

China never signed Geneva agreement, so spike bayonets they use.  Anyone military historians on the forum know for sure?

I thought the same thing... spikes were outlawed I searched, dug, and searched some more, read tons of boring arse stuff. No one anywhere could provide a link, a excerpt from the document, a simple cut and paste, post a clause, the exact phrase. Just that it was illegal...bla bla, no supporting proof, just "it is illegal". Some more thinking, about wounds, a claymore, landmine, RPG, phosphorous grenade, napalm, carpet bombing, fuel air bomb are all a worse fate than that spike

But, wait.... The British used a spike bayonet with the No 4 Mk 1 Enfield Rifle during Korea, and well into 1960s by some Territorial Forces. So Britain, a Geneva Convention signing nation used the spike "AFTER" 1949, into the 1960's. The FN FAL Type C bayonet made in the 60's and well into the late 70's is a spike bayonet, Brazil and the Netherlands were some of the users.

I say the Geneva/Hague Convention spike bayonet ban is bogus and dead in the water..   The date of 1949 for both, I would chalk it up to pure coincidence..

You and the others can feel free to decide/discuss.

What I ran across is posted below, the best explanation I can find and not wrote in lawyerese...from  http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-war&month=0409&week=b&msg=lGjMnNXpoagB5SCBCux6XQ&user=&pw

On 2 Sep 2004, John Shepherd wrote: "I have heard it said that the
triangular cross-section bayonet used in the American Revolution and up
through at least the American Civil War was, at
some time after 1865, determined to cause unduly grievous wounds and was
'outlawed' by an unspecified international agreement.

"I have attempted to find some confirmation that an international convention
did, in fact, ban these weapons.  I have reviewed the various Hague and
Geneva conventions of the 19th and early 20th centuries, and can find only
an oblique reference (Article 23 of both the Hague II (1899) and Hague IV
(1907) conventions) which prohibits weapons which produce unnecessary
suffering.  I have, thus far, found no implementing interpretations which
specifically cite these conventions and discuss a
change in bayonet configuration."


   In regard to Mr Shepherd's query re the blade shape of bayonets being
outlawed due to their unusual shape, there is no such thing in any of the
international statues to declare these illegal.

   In all of my years teaching military law to NCO courses and officer
cadets, and the teaching of jus in bello - the classical name of the laws of
war, this is always a subject which gets brought up.  In none of the various
protocols on this from the first Hague conference in 1899 to the 1998 ROme
Statue of the International Criminal Court, has the subject of the
illegality of edged thrusting weapons with unusual blade configuration such
a serations, jagged edges etc  ever been described.

   Whilst normal thought of a bayonet is of a knife shape, since the first
adoption of the plug bayonet (from Bayonne, a town in SW France renowned for
both its cutlery and hams) being a short dagger that could be jammed into
the muzzel of a firearm as a emergency weapon against charging pigs. In
actual fact for the majority of military use throughout the world, bayonets
have been of a triangular shape (or variations of). Usually with channels
running down the sides to allow blood flow, and to stop suction when rammed
into soft tissue holding the weapon.

   It was only with the adoption of such weapons as the Krag, the Lee
Enfield, the Mauser (Russian military thought persisted with the triangular
shape until recent times) were knife shaped bayonets adopted.  These have
not been particularly efficient killing weapons, and much research over the
years has gone into designing more effective instruments of killing.

   It is worth following the British experience.  Post 1919, it was decided
to replace the SMLE Mark III (and variants) (Short Magazine Lee Enfield, a
.303 inch bolt action rifle), with a weapon both cheaper and simpler to
manufacture.  This eventually becoming the No 4 Rifle, the bayonet
previously used was the 17inch blade No 1 Mark I "sword' bayonet.  This both
clumbersome to use and ineffective in its actual use, trials were carried
out in the 1920's to find the ideal bayonet.  A weapon based upon the tip of
the 'Bowie Knife'  with a blade that had channels as previously described
was considered to be ideal, however!   In actual use, the bowie shape whilst
ideal for punching through the rib cage of human, and subsequent ease of
withdrawal, had the problem that had a tendency to snap off at the point.
Whilst specialist steel mongering could produce a weapon which did not do
this, it was extremely expensive for the metallurgy of the time.

   After further research what was produced became the No 4 Mark II "Spike"
bayonet.  This being a 8 inch steel rod, with the final inch being channel
into a spike tip.  However, it did not look very military, and when the
drill command 'fix bayonets' (or swords int he case of rifle regiments) it
did look very odd.  This simple piece of steel was an extremely efficient
killing weapon (NOTE), when thrust into the thoracic regon the spike tip
would automatically slip into the space between ribs, puncturing lungs and
heart, and even if it failed it would kill by the loss of pressure within
the thoracic cavity.  It had a similar effect when thrust into the
facial/cranium, but, was not so efficient in the abdominal region.  It also
had a further use, in that when fitted to the shaft of the entrenching tool
(an infantryman's shovel) it was an effective mine probe (we use this same
device on the property for slaughtering pigs, calves and lambs).

   The average soldier did not trust the weapon, that is until they had
battle experience, and in the early 1950's a bayonet was developed using the
"bowie knife" shape, the advances in metallurgy in WWII being responsible
for this. The current bayonet used on the British L85 rifle is of a more
advanced shape (manufactured by a cold steel process) which has a very shape
and distinct 'bowie' tip.  This has proved very effective in recent
operations in Iraq.

   The problems of bayonets being illegal weapons stems back to the Great
War, when the German Army used the Pioneer Bayonet for issue to its engineer
troops.  This having a bulbous point, and a upper side with saw type
serations, they allowed the bayonet to be used for simple engineering
tasks.  The troops in the front line thought that the weapon would cause
horrific injuries to the body, it in actual fact being a very inefficient
fighting bayonet.  So it became a common belief of soldiers that the
carriage of such a bayonet would mean instant death to a man carrying it!!!


Yours,
G/.
G.A.MACKINLAY