Commercial? Milsurp? ComMi?

[montigre]

Okay, as you can surmise by the title, I have no idea where to place this thread.  In about a week, I should be welcoming another SKS baby into the fold.  This one is Chinese by Norinco, but that's the only easy part of my conundrum. 

This is an unissued Type 56 that was imported by the now defunct Nationwide Sports Distributors out of Southampton, PA (possibly pre ban because Nationwide Sports was hit with an involuntary bankruptcy in March 1998 and had to liquidate it's assets).  Just to make things interesting, the original box lists the carbine as a sporter model.

Moving on from there, the stock is not made from the usual catalpa one would expect on a Chinese SKS, but appears to be Russian birch and has also been stained in a similar shade of red as the Russians. The parts, although matching, appear to be a mix of some older and newer styles: the barrel looks not to be pinned and the receiver is milled, but the trigger group is definitely stamped. 

Now, the rest of the story: The  SN is in the 21 million range, but there is no arsenal mark, just the confounding "DP" prefix that has been causing so much discussion over the past several years followed by 4 Chinese characters: the first for the city Yanji and the remaining three the usual Type 56.  Now, the really strang part--following all of this is the suffix "JH".  Now what in the world is that all about???  

So is this a military gun, a commercial gun, or some hybrid that has not yet been categorized???  The questions seem never-ending with these beasts!! 

Now for a couple of pics (not mine):








Opinions??? 

[Greasemonkey]

My opinion, it's a military... it maintains the original military form and design. The sporter name is possibly because it's imported after the '89 weapon ban, which is why the bayonet has been removed.

In my eyes, commercial are altered, deviating from the original design, Ak mags, shortened barrels/gas systems, thumb hole and hunting rifle style stocks.

Oh, it won't happen to me.....

[XXXSKS]

Never seen that importer before. Is the rifle stamped Nationwide Sports Distributors.

...............Joe

[XXXSKS]

Says B West on the instruction manual. Could be imported by B West and sold to Nationwide as a dealer.

Either way milsurp...

............Joe

[montigre]

Oh, it won't happen to me.....

Okay...okay...I admit that I'm a JUNKIE    

[montigre]

Any ideas about the meaning of that JH Suffix?   

[running-man]

Says B West on the instruction manual. Could be imported by B West and sold to Nationwide as a dealer.

Either way milsurp...

............Joe

Yup, also the "Sporter" nomenclature on the box is very B-West specific.  B-West is likely the importer and Nationwide the wholesaler/retailer.  (Like the recent IO Imports were sold by both RTI (IO's retail branch) and Classic Arms.)  The B-West stamp on this gun might be miniscule if it's an early stamp.  See the Chinese Arsenal Stamps thread for the various B-West stamps I've found.  I'm sure one will turn up on this gun.

This gun has a DP 吉 (Jilin) stamping I think, not DP 延 (Yanji).  S/N is right in the range of others recorded, this arsenal also produced 19, 20, 22, and 24 (and likely 23) prefixed type 56s.

[Greasemonkey]

The box does state "Distributed by Nationwide Sport Distributors Inc."  Just a reseller, a shady umbrella corp , not a true blue importer...bet the rifle is stamped B-West.

[running-man]

Any ideas about the meaning of that JH Suffix?

Likely an exporter applied marking stamped at export.  Possibly requested by the importer to give the gun a unique ID.  Duplicating the S/N of two guns out of 21,004,2xx seems like an impossibility, but another arsenal that also made year 21 rifles could have made 42xx of them, numbered them in the same way (2100XXXX) and had the exact same S/N as this one.  Matching two guns out of 42xx is far easier.

[Greasemonkey]

The stock/finish question... could be a replacement, could also be luck of the draw, sometimes even what ever the particular factory was using.. not all Chinese, Norincos have the light yellow/orangish stocks, they will vary.

My 2 /26\ rifles, both 9 million, serial is 40,000 different, with different finishes. My stock example is a unserialed replacement, this was as imported.

[montigre]

Yup, also the "Sporter" nomenclature on the box is very B-West specific.  B-West is likely the importer and Nationwide the wholesaler/retailer.  (Like the recent IO Imports were sold by both RTI (IO's retail branch) and Classic Arms.)  The B-West stamp on this gun might be miniscule if it's an early stamp.  See the Chinese Arsenal Stamps thread for the various B-West stamps I've found.  I'm sure one will turn up on this gun.

This gun has a DP 吉 (Jilin) stamping I think, not DP 延 (Yanji).  S/N is right in the range of others recorded, this arsenal also produced 19, 20, 22, and 24 (and likely 23) prefixed type 56s.

I cannot see the B-West stamp in that link; just the arsenal stamps and the list of Chinese manufacturers...maybe I don't yet have enough brownie points yet....  Anyway, it seems very logical that B-West is the actual importer since it is listed as being a BWSKSA on the label.  I was just going by the main lettering on the box's exterior. 

And you're right; it is Jilin city...  dumb blinkety blank senior moment hit me from broadsides

[running-man]

I cannot see the B-West stamp in that link; just the arsenal stamps and the list of Chinese manufacturers...maybe I don't yet have enough brownie points yet....  Anyway, it seems very logical that B-West is the actual importer since it is listed as being a BWSKSA on the label.  I was just going by the main lettering on the box's exterior. 

And you're right; it is Jilin city...  dumb blinkety blank senior moment hit me from broadsides

I'm way off my game today.     I gave you the wrong link: http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=2111.0 (sorry about that!)

Look at numbers 8 through 16.

The early B-West stamps will be LA, California while the later ones were out of Tucson, Arizona.  Likely marked in pretty small font on the receiver somewhere.

[montigre]

The stock/finish question... could be a replacement, could also be luck of the draw, sometimes even what ever the particular factory was using.. not all Chinese, Norincos have the light yellow/orangish stocks, they will vary.

Good example.  It may be a serialized replacement stock.  But then again, if /26\, a state-owned arsenal that is known for its relative fastidious manner of marking their guns (in Chinese terms, of course) did not bother to serialize a replacement stock, why would some smaller factory or sweat shop do so?  Based on this, I tend to lean toward the stock being original. Just throwing it out there....

[montigre]

I'm way off my game today.     I gave you the wrong link: http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=2111.0 (sorry about that!)

Look at numbers 8 through 16.

The early B-West stamps will be LA, California while the later ones were out of Tucson, Arizona.  Likely marked in pretty small font on the receiver somewhere.

No worries....occasional brain farts keep us on our toes...   Thanks for the link. Earlier today I asked the seller for a close up of the left side of the receiver so the importer stamp could be seen along with a couple of other shots, but I have a feeling I will likely have the gun in hand before I see the requested pics..lol!

[montigre]

The box does state "Distributed by Nationwide Sport Distributors Inc."  Just a reseller, a shady umbrella corp , not a true blue importer...bet the rifle is stamped B-West.

You have no idea how right you are, GM.  I read through the bankruptcy court papers and was astonished he could stay in the gun trading business as long as he did (25 years) as a sole owner/sole principal.  He preserved the business name and is now running some venture as a cargo transportation company (with only one employee (himself) and only one truck)     He must have been some type of wheeler dealer in the day..

[montigre]

Likely an exporter applied marking stamped at export.  Possibly requested by the importer to give the gun a unique ID.  Duplicating the S/N of two guns out of 21,004,2xx seems like an impossibility, but another arsenal that also made year 21 rifles could have made 42xx of them, numbered them in the same way (2100XXXX) and had the exact same S/N as this one.  Matching two guns out of 42xx is far easier.

So, would it be safe to assume that since the exported went through the trouble of marking it with a suffix to prevent duplication of serial numbers between factories, that this was likely manufactured at one of the larger factories in Jilin that would be able to produce that level of output? 

Is there any way to narrow down which factory may have been responsible for its manufacture?

[Greasemonkey]

Good example.  It may be a serialized replacement stock.  But then again, if /26\, a state-owned arsenal that is known for its relative fastidious manner of marking their guns (in Chinese terms, of course) did not bother to serialize a replacement stock, why would some smaller factory or sweat shop do so?  Based on this, I tend to lean toward the stock being original. Just throwing it out there....

Thing is   Did /26\  replace my stock, did they just not stamp it, was it done at another factory/refurb shop using dark wood and finishes and not stamping serials or even the exporter or importer who had blanks ready and thought the orginial was possibly too rough for sale. Granted the nice metal finish either suggests no use or it could also suggest a refreshment trip through a factory given it's age, one will never truly know.

[running-man]

Actually it was likely a very small factory, highest year 21 S/N I've seen (by 200 numbers) is yours, ~4200 guns that year.

If I was pressed to give my opinion, I'd say that the suffix wasn't marked at manufacture, it was marked at export by the exporter as required by the importer.  We've seen many guns in the US with S/N's only a few hundred different, both from the same arsenal have suffixes and not have suffixes.  Alternatively, I've never seen Chinese guns pop up in Europe with suffixes   The Chinese didn't care if they replicated S/N's on a gun, the S/N's were just there to indicate year of manufacture and to help keep critical piece parts (bolts etc.) associated with the gun they belonged on.  BATF on the other hand, they care about unique S/N's.  It's interesting to see that they don't particularly care if you imported a Glock and a surplus Chinese SKS - they both have to have unique serial numbers regardless of make and model.  27 CFR §478.92 explains it well:

How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?
(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

(i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed (I assume this also means all S/Ns you import even though it's not explicit here -RM)  by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1⁄16 inch; and

(ii) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

(A) The model, if such designation has been made;
(B) The caliber or gauge;
(C) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer;
(D) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business; and
(E) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

[montigre]

Thanks, guys I appreciate your opinions and comments--I learned quite a lot!! 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Late to the party. 

Its not a commercial gun, and that stock is original to the rifle as far as I can tell.   Everything these guys told you in this thread is dead nutz accurate.