When was the Navy Arms Assault Carbine Type 84 imported?

[Greasemonkey]

Ok..Ok, where did the name Type 84 come from? Whats the significance of 84? Who actually made it?

[padams8888]

They also say it accepts standard  30-40 round magazines  and drums. .....ummmmm....no. Awesome find Joe!!!

[XXXSKS]

Ok..Ok, where did the name Type 84 come from? Whats the significance of 84? Who actually made it?

The floor is open for discussion ? Opinions? Anyone?

They also say it accepts standard  30-40 round magazines  and drums. .....ummmmm....no. Awesome find Joe!!!

Yea they were so eager the get this infomation out to the public they just made that assumption. I do believe some of the Assault Carbines that were modded for drum use accutally came from the N.A. custom shop.

.................. Joe

[Power Surge]

Well now, that's quite the imaginative description! Also interesting that it says it takes standard AK mags too.

[Greasemonkey]

Ok..Ok, where did the name Type 84 come from? Whats the significance of 84? Who actually made it?

The floor is open for discussion ? Opinions? Anyone?

Oh I love it  ... another age old myth, possibly goes poof 

[firstchoice]

  I had heard that the Midwest Ordnance AK mag conversions (done here in the USA) inspired the Type 84 design. (More the AK mag conversion than than the bolt hold open option) Something about the same guy, the same importer, or something like that. Is there anything to that Joe? Or was it simply the D design that came out of the Midwest Ordnance creations?

firstchoice

[XXXSKS]

  I had heard that the Midwest Ordnance AK mag conversions (done here in the USA) inspired the Type 84 design. (More the AK mag conversion than than the bolt hold open option) Something about the same guy, the same importer, or something like that. Is there anything to that Joe? Or was it simply the D design that came out of the Midwest Ordnance creations?

firstchoice

Midwest Ordnance AK magazine conversion advertisements start in 1991.

...................Joe

[firstchoice]

    Okay, now I'm falling down the rabbit hole again. In your "SKS rifles with AK-47 magazine capability" section, you list the Midwest Ordnance AK mag conversion as "The first Commercial SKS to utilize the AK mag." So, which came first, the chicken, (Midwest Ordnance), or the egg, (the Type 84/or the D w/AK mag conversion made in China)? The old "written in stone", (well, at least scribbled on toilet paper), story on AK mag conversions was that M.O. started the idea/trend of AK mag conversions, (insert here the unknown reasons to me of why M.O quit doing it and passed it on to the Chinese), and then it was passed on to the Chinese to make them in mass, cheaper, out of existing milsurp stock. And from there, the AK mag conversions went in all different directions.

  If the M.O. rifles weren't advertised until 1991, that puts the Beta Arms and China Sports D's (new production rifles) already manufactured and in the USA by 1988, 3 years before the M.O. rifles? The time line and lineage I thought I knew is going up in smoke here...

  H-E-L-P !      

  firstchoice

   

[running-man]

Good thought experiment FC!  Here is what I have down based on S/N prefixes (taken right out of the Chinese dating thread) adding what this thread now appears to show in orange.  There may be errors here in both dating and configuration (new/vs rearsenalad), so let's take the whole list with a grain of salt:

• 1984: Clayco M8 marked guns, new production (on scrubbed receivers?)
• 1988: SKS 63, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1988: SKS D, new production, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1988 to 1989 & 1992 to 1993: SKS Sporter, rearsenaled?, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1989: SKS KS-30, 16.5” barrel, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1989: Navy Arms "SKS Assault Carbine" (formerly type 84), new production rearsenaled, accepts modified AK magazines
• 1991: Midwest Ordinance "AK Conversion"?, modified stateside?, accepts modified AK magazines
• 1992: SKSS, new production, 16.5” barrel, short gas system.
• 1993: SKS 93, 16.5” barrel, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1993 to 1994: SKS M, new production, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1993 to 1994: SKS NR, new production, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1993 to 1994: SKS MC-5D, rearsenaled, accepts standard AK magazines.

Joe is that possible?

[XXXSKS]

You need to understand this is NEW (or forgotten) information I am collecting. Sometimes the information is black and white facts. As in the T 84 being SECOND  Updates to the guide are coming. The MO ads in 1991 clearly state "We are originators of the D" It is possible the urban legend of them showing the Chinese how to do the conversion is true. The ads do not substantiate a timeline. The info coming out of these back issues is like a water fall. IF THE URBAN LEGEND IS TRUE. They taught the Chinese to do the conversion before they set up production and BEFORE the BATF stopped their production. The advertising timeline is not correct to the legend. I am srill trying to make sence of this info

.. ..............Joe

[XXXSKS]

Good thought experiment FC!  Here is what I have down based on S/N prefixes (taken right out of the Chinese dating thread) adding what this thread now appears to show in orange.  There may be errors here in both dating and configuration (new/vs rearsenalad), so let's take the whole list with a grain of salt:

• 1984: Clayco M8 marked guns, new production (on scrubbed receivers?)
• 1988: SKS 63, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1988: SKS D, new production, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1988 to 1989 & 1992 to 1993: SKS Sporter, rearsenaled?, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1989: SKS KS-30, 16.5” barrel, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1989: Navy Arms "SKS Assault Carbine" (formerly type 84), new production, accepts modified AK magazines
• 1991: Midwest Ordinance "AK Conversion"?, modified stateside?, accepts modified AK magazines
• 1992: SKSS, new production, 16.5” barrel, short gas system.
• 1993: SKS 93, 16.5” barrel, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1993 to 1994: SKS M, new production, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1993 to 1994: SKS NR, new production, accepts standard AK magazines.
• 1993 to 1994: SKS MC-5D, rearsenaled, accepts standard AK magazines.

Joe is that possible?

Yes. Although the N.A. Assault Carbine/Type 84 is not new production. They are rearsenaled and MO rifles use standard AK mags

[running-man]

The MO ads in 1991 clearly state "We are originators of the D"

That's pretty interesting Joe!  Any chance you could post that one as well?  I'd love to see what they advertised and at what price it sold! 

It could easily be that MO started the conversion process pre-'88 like is commonly thought.  It then quickly got out of their control when the Chinese began conversions wholesale in '88, and by '91 they were still advertising their 'own' version of the modifications (though by this time the market was beginning to get crowded).    It will be interesting to see what you come up with as more info comes to light, good job! 

[running-man]

Yes. Although the N.A. Assault Carbine/Type 84 is not new production. They are rearsenaled.

Crap I knew that.  Ok fixed! 

[Greasemonkey]

So if these were introduced in March 10 1989, the Bush ban on "assault" weapons(or the it's not a legit sporting weapons ban) went into effect on July 7 1989.

Bush's 1989 ban was on the importation of foreign-made, semiautomatic assault rifles deemed not to have "a legitimate sporting use." It did not affect similar but domestically manufactured rifles.

The bayonets pretty much vanished off the hi-cap rifles at this point, goofy sporter stocks came the rage, even though the ban doesn't specifically state Type 84 SKS.
It's kinda funny....the Valmet Hunter was exempted in this order...but, it had a sporter style stock which I'm guessing the rest followed that design to come in under the ban.

Also, as I read, this order did not effect domestic production, so with that and very limited production, so I'm guessing they were imported this way.

And with only not even, one could say around 5, maybe 6 months of production of any type, that narrows the numbers when compared to other weapons of the era.

I still can't find where or why the term Type 84 was used, I find Type 84s1 and 84s3 Aks, a anti terrorism pocket pistol and a mine.

Maybe it was a play on the Type 84 Ak term/name, try to offer an SKS with almost the same features as the Ak, to boost sales of SKSs, the bolt hold open was just a futile attempt to get the bolt to stay open with the mag out.

[XXXSKS]

The MO ads in 1991 clearly state "We are originators of the D"

That's pretty interesting Joe!  Any chance you could post that one as well?  I'd love to see what they advertised and at what price it sold! 

It could easily be that MO started the conversion process pre-'88 like is commonly thought.  It then quickly got out of their control when the Chinese began conversions wholesale in '88, and by '91 they were still advertising their 'own' version of the modifications (though by this time the market was beginning to get crowded).    It will be interesting to see what you come up with as more info comes to light, good job! 

I will start a new thread when i get them scanned.

So if these were introduced in March 10 1989, the Bush ban on "assault" weapons(or the it's not a legit sporting weapons ban) went into effect on July 7 1989.

Bush's 1989 ban was on the importation of foreign-made, semiautomatic assault rifles deemed not to have "a legitimate sporting use." It did not affect similar but domestically manufactured rifles.

The bayonets pretty much vanished off the hi-cap rifles at this point, goofy sporter stocks came the rage, even though the ban doesn't specifically state Type 84 SKS.
It's kinda funny....the Valmet Hunter was exempted in this order...but, it had a sporter style stock which I'm guessing the rest followed that design to come in under the ban.

Also, as I read, this order did not effect domestic production, so with that and very limited production, so I'm guessing they were imported this way.

And with only not even, one could say around 5, maybe 6 months of production of any type, that narrows the numbers when compared to other weapons of the era.

I still can't find where or why the term Type 84 was used, I find Type 84s1 and 84s3 Aks, a anti terrorism pocket pistol and a mine.

Maybe it was a play on the Type 84 Ak term/name, try to offer an SKS with almost the same features as the Ak, to boost sales of SKSs, the bolt hold open was just a futile attempt to get the bolt to stay open with the mag out.

I guess the point of this thread is to show the name Type 84 is not an offical designation of a SKS rifle. It was not called the Type 84 by the lmporter and it is not on any ban paperwork anywhere. It was coined by collectors right after the 89 ban you speak of... as to not include it in that ban.

....................Joe

[Phosphorus32]

I guess the point of this thread is to show the name Type 84 is not an offical designation of a SKS rifle. It was not called the Type 84 by the lmporter and it is not on any ban paperwork anywhere. It was coined by collectors right after the 89 ban you speak of... as to not include it in that ban.

....................Joe

Hamlet: Aye, there's the rub 

[Greasemonkey]

I guess the point of this thread is to show the name Type 84 is not an offical designation of a SKS rifle. It was not called the Type 84 by the lmporter and it is not on any ban paperwork anywhere. It was coined by collectors right after the 89 ban you speak of... as to not include it in that ban.

So, when they hit the shelves some "collector" said "this will be here by known as a Type 84 from this day forth", which opens another can-o-worms, how did they know it would even be a collectible, they were surrounded by them everywhere, in crates at shows, along with masses of "D"s, "M"s, SKSS and Sporters. Usually in my experience, a specific type of weapon doesn't become collectible until it vanishes from the market, and then the demand overwhelms the supply, making them more sought after and prices rise. Kind of like the Vz2008, the PSLs, Saiga shotguns, M76 Yugos of recent years. When these were widely available and everywhere, you couldn't give one to some people, now they try to mortgage their house and pay through the nose for one.

[XXXSKS]

So, when they hit the shelves some "collector" said "this will be here by known as a Type 84 from this day forth", which opens another can-o-worms, how did they know it would even be a collectible, they were surrounded by them everywhere, in crates at shows, along with masses of "D"s, "M"s, SKSS and Sporters. Usually in my experience, a specific type of weapon doesn't become collectible until it vanishes from the market, and then the demand overwhelms the supply, making them more sought after and prices rise. Kind of like the Vz2008, the PSLs, Saiga shotguns, M76 Yugos of recent years. When these were widely available and everywhere, you couldn't give one to some people, now they try to mortgage their house and pay through the nose for one.

   OK lets talk about this. I turn your attention to the teaser ad were it states "Limited Supply". 

The only issue (3-10-1989) showing the N.A. Assault Carbine/Type 84 is also the last issue showing the D.I.G Detachable 20 SKS. The Detachable 20' SKS was advertised for over a year by D.I.G, China Sports and various dealers. The D sales are winding down at this point in time. My estimation based on hi and low serial numbers puts the total at 25k rifles give or take for just over one year of advertising.

Navy Arms imported and sold 400 Precision Degree rifles about this same time. With only one ad. I will post it as soon as I can find it.
**Correction. they were advertised for a five month run in Shotgun News from 11-1989 to 3-1990. XXXSKS.**

This point in time is also three years (92) before the SKSS and four years (93) before the M's and Sporters. We are not swimming in AK mag rifles in 1989.

I agree a rifle becomes collectable when it vanishes from the market. Navy Arms never advertised this rifle again. It vanished from the market with only one ad. I have always speculated there was only 400 of these rifles imported give or take. The rifle became a collectable because of it's unique configuration and limited quantity.

.................................Joe

[Greasemonkey]

We are not swimming in AK mag rifles in 1989.

And all within a few months, the tide changes, and this is were the swimming in Aks comes in, early 1990 the first trickle started, (the real early ones with threaded barrels, and no year prefix in the serial) then the mass 4 year importation of the MAK-90, MAK-91, NHM-90, NHM-91, BWK-92, and Hunter. MAK-90 stands for Modified AK rifle-model of 1990. All told, near as I can find, somewhere in the neighborhood of a million MAK-90s alone were imported in total, more than any other type of Ak from any nation, and even China up to this point.

So much change with everything in just a matter of roughly a year.

Then some guy who didn't bother to inhale and denied special super secret relations with that intern in the blue dress screws it all up.

[Power Surge]

It's too bad we couldn't have 5 minutes with Val from Navy Arms. So many questions could be answered. I contacted them a while back asking if there was any old info from those days still left, and the reply was that every bit of it was turned over to the ATF