Trying to help with these Russians!

Dannyboy53 · June 28, 2015, 07:40:10 PM

I am one of the rookies here but I want to contribute something toward, as Carbine said, "cracking some of these Russian questions". This is my Russian I got a short while ago with the Tula cover and an Izzy stock! Not top shelf photos but the best I can come up with at the moment. I may not be posting what needs to be seen (I'm a rookie, remember?) so let me know.

This post is picture heavy guys.

Receiver s/n

Loose}{Cannon · June 28, 2015, 07:47:29 PM

Whats the question?

CARBINE · June 28, 2015, 07:59:53 PM

We are trying to find a way to figure out a way to distinguish a Tula from a Izhevsk without the top cover and not going off serial numbers, looking at all the other markings, stamps ect.

Loose}{Cannon · June 28, 2015, 08:20:32 PM

Ah... Cool

Dannyboy53 · July 01, 2015, 02:18:42 AM

If I'm understanding correctly, s/n's stamped on the left side of the handguard were originally thought to be "ex-DDR". That belief has been shot down, so where does that leave us...who the heck stamped this?! This does not seem to me to be common to all Russians, is this a standard refurb practice or just done to certain carbines? This handguard is a laminated guard right?

Also I do have a triangle stamp that Stoned-0li asked me about immediately in front of the receiver s/n and the Nizhyn stamp but I am unable to see anything within the triangle so I can not say it's a Liski stamp. Part of the triangle is clearly seen on the extreme left side of the second photo above. IF there is a "1" in this triangle (Liski stamp) then this carbine would have been through two facillities, each at a different time?! Is that likely/unlikely? Or could this triangle simply mean something else?

Loose}{Cannon · July 01, 2015, 09:51:41 AM

Just a refurb danny, the russians did it... Both stamps are on the refurb depo list and a /1\ is a /1\, we know what it means. Uncommon?.. I dunno but I have seen hundreds over the net. The handguard is laminate... Because its incorrect for that year and was put on at refurb.

running-man · July 01, 2015, 10:22:48 AM

They were doing horizontal numbers in Russia for a long long time before the SKS Danny. The whole ex-ex-DDR thing was really brought about because someone saw a /1\ stamp on a Mosin Nagant or SKS, knew there was a /1\ stamp on German commercially exported guns and made a magical leap to connect the two. The stamps are extremely different:

Actual DDR /1\ stamp (note this is a stamp for COMMERCIAL export):

SKS /1\:

Mosin /1\:

The /1\ on SKSs often correlated with horizontal numbering on the stock and handguard so another magical leap was made to state that the horizontal numbers are an indication of DDR'ed-ness Oftentimes the /1\ was so poorly stuck it wasn't easily seen, but by this time, the horizontal handguard numbers proved DDR'ed-ness so you didn't need them!

It was a nice hypothesis, but unfortunately it doesn't stand up under scrutiny such as asking the question: "Why would the germans mark "loaned" Russian SKS45s with a stamp they used for commercial arms production?" Too many things don't add up and the whole house of cards falls apart because there isn't any evidence to support any of it.

As for a gun going through multiple refub shops, you bet:

Power Surge · July 01, 2015, 10:53:26 AM

Quote from: CARBINE on June 28, 2015, 07:59:53 PM
We are trying to find a way to figure out a way to distinguish a Tula from a Izhevsk without the top cover and not going off serial numbers, looking at all the other markings, stamps ect.

Based on your collection of non-refurbs, I would think you would have the best chance of figuring that out

Dannyboy53 · July 01, 2015, 04:24:29 PM

Guys I'm not trying to "resurrect" the ex-DDR issue. I have read the info about the Russian Gentleman proving that theory wrong and there is no way between heaven or hell that I would challenge him! I also agree with running-man's thoughts....why would the Germans mark these carbines under the circumstances, it doesn't make any sense for them to do that.

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on July 01, 2015, 09:51:41 AM
Just a refurb danny, the russians did it... Both stamps are on the refurb depo list and a /1\ is a /1\, we know what it means. Uncommon?.. I dunno but I have seen hundreds over the net. The handguard is laminate... Because its incorrect for that year and was put on at refurb.

I get all this LC, I was simply asking rhetorically, specifically which Russians? My carbine is heavily refurbed, possibly two different times! As Carbine pointed out, we have no way to tell who manufactured what Russian SKS in most cases because we know we can't depend on the cover information, and the serial numbers tell us very little. Does the /1\ always appear to the left of the receiver s/n on the SKS? Speaking of S/Ns I have no idea if there is any significance to the #'s on the handguard and stock being the same dimensions...1/4" H X 1/8" W or if that is of any interest or important.

I find this secrecy on the part of the Russians to be maddeningly frustrating...I

in Putins' general direction.

running-man · July 01, 2015, 08:31:13 PM

No worries Danny, I enjoy the discussion. I've never seen a /1\ anywhere but to the left of a S/N on the receiver. Very possible there could be some hiding in various bolt, carrier, or FSB stamping a though. I've never looked at any of those in depth to find common stamps (I'll get there eventually though, unfortunately there are only so many hours in a day!)

The significance of the hand guard and stock fonts being the same leads me to believe they were stamped at the same time. Maybe this particular refurb shop found that much easier to deal with than trying to EP a handwritten S/N on a round gas tube? Who knows?

Dannyboy53 · July 03, 2015, 12:37:50 PM

Running-man the sensing I get is the same as yours about the stamps on the hand guard and stock.

Quote from: running-man on July 01, 2015, 08:31:13 PM
I've never looked at any of those in depth to find common stamps (I'll get there eventually though, unfortunately there are only so many hours in a day!)

Is this how you make a break-through in finding answers, is this basically how things were done with the Chinese carbines? I have zero experience in such things. If so, would it help to set up a categorized data base of pictures of these parts and their stampings that you speak of from all our carbines or would this be maybe more trouble than it's worth?! We could then compare them with known manufacturers/years that we have available?

Just wondering out loud!

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Trying to help with these Russians!