Need info on North Vietnam M21 SKS

[MGannaway]

I picked up this sks at the gun shop today.  Just how rare is this? saw in a post on here that only an estimated 200 exist in the United States. If that is the case then what is it worth?

[Loose}{Cannon]

Nice early m21...   where did you see the 200 estimate?

[running-man]

That was an WAG estimate put out on the 'other' boards. I think there are many more than that in the US, closer to 500-750.  Definitely more numerous than the NVA stamped receivers that made it back. 

This gun may be a VN bring back, but that's where any NVA association stops.  It's 100% Chinese.

I'd say your m21 is worth $500 at the low end up to $1500.  The stock carvings are interesting.  They ding the value for some and increase it for others.  If you had papers, you'd be at $1500+ I bet. 

[Phosphorus32]

That is one cool find! 

Did you check the buttplate trap door for papers 

[Loose}{Cannon]

I agree as usual to what RM says... but I dunno about his price assessment.   

400-600 I would say for non papered and all.  Condition plays a major factor which yours on my scale would be about a 50 outta 100.  That being said, it so has the neat factor going on with the acribbles.

550 is the max I would pay for that gun..... 'if' I just had to have it.

[Worm]

Yeah I love my Chinese & all, but not sure I'd pay over 1k for a Nam M21. Then again maybe some would.

In my opinion, one with trench art and wear such as yours is way cooler than a prestine one.

I mean, how many Nam guns have trench art? Not many. Great find, hold onto it.

[Phosphorus32]

Howard's Hill Small Unit Action Historical Account, June 1966

Involved Lance Corporal Ralph Glober Victor (R.G. Victor) among others.

Howard's Hill

[running-man]

I agree as usual to what RM says... but I dunno about his price assessment.   

400-600 I would say for non papered and all.  Condition plays a major factor which yours on my scale would be about a 50 outta 100.  That being said, it so has the neat factor going on with the acribbles.

550 is the max I would pay for that gun..... 'if' I just had to have it.

Yeah I chewed over my initial $750 a good while, thought better of it, and lowered it to 5 bills.  All things being equal, M21s should bring roughly the same as an NVA, EG, or NK model or *any* of the papered 'other' versions as they were brought back under the exact same conditions.  We know this to not be true as the big three routinely push $3k while a nicely papered Chinese is lucky to break $800. 

This thread reminds me that I need to put M21 No in the GB survey as a pick item in the NVA/EG/NK/Papered bringback category.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Not if they are non papered you dont.   

This isn't a 'big three'. 

[Worm]

Howard's Hill Small Unit Action Historical Account, June 1966

Involved Lance Corporal Ralph Glober Victor (R.G. Victor) among others.

Howard's Hill

Awesome!!

[running-man]

Not if they are non papered you dont.   

This isn't a 'big three'.

I'm going to mildly disagree here.  VN bringbacks are VN bring backs, they aren't making any more of 'em.  With a select few guns, (like the big three) that is the only way they are here in the US.  I'd be willing to put M21 No's in this category as well.  There was chatter about these coming in with the 80s and 90's import a while ago.  Any truth to that?  Any of them ever shown up with an actual import stamp?  I'm not talking the NA's, 416 M21's, M21 0296's, or the general N0's, the true No's with the 800k/900k s/n's.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Think worm discovered a few... 

Ill send you the serials of my non papered bringbacks so you can add them to the mix.   

Sounds like you simply need a non marked, non papered section.   

Nobody is making the sks anymore. 

[Loose}{Cannon]

The "big three" are grouped together because they are 'presumed' to be made in an entirely different country. If anything, the nva property marked guns need to be taken out.

Chinese go with chinese.... If it has no import marks, import marks, papers, no papers. Compare them AND their value to the other chinese. No special category needed.

We have commercial guns pushing $1k not to mention a handful of guns that are much much more rare.

[running-man]

Yup, I agree with almost everything you've said.  Mitch tells me there are import stamped M21 No's out there and I believe both of you.  Once we get pictures we can put that one to rest.  I've been under the assumption that M21s only got to the US via bringback status.  That's the going assumption for the big three, and I think this is what gives them 80% of their value.  If suddenly Germany released 2000 SKSs that were miraculously allowed to be imported into the US, would they still be $3k guns?  Likely not as there are thought to be 2000 Rasheeds in the US and they aren't even close to that price.  There are only several thousand Albanians in the US and they aren't pushing $1k either.  It's more than rarity keeping the price up here, it's some unmeasurable allure.

Would EG w/ Vietnam capture papers be worth that much still even after a big import?  I'd say they would still command a hefty premium over an avg. priced "new" EG import in the above scenario. 

Unverifiable non-papered VN bringbacks are one thing, but if you've got an EG/NVA/NK (and I'd still add M21 No to the list, even if once we get an image of one with an import mark) it's pretty safe to assume those were brought in to the states as bringbacks. 

In the end the market decides what any particular gun is worth.  I just finished categorizing an NVA w/papers and a Chinese /26\ with papers.  The NVA brought $3750, the Chinese $1250.  Two guns, likely built at the same arsenal, to the same quality, maybe by the same workers with two different stamps: $2500 apart.  It doesn't make sense (just like the damn Izhevsks don't make sense to me, but there you go.)  One of the more maddening things about collecting is not being able to control the price of things based on concrete criteria like rarity, despite the best efforts by 'real collectors' to prop up their stuff.

[Loose}{Cannon]

This is the issue.

Price/value is completely irrelevant to categorization, or we have a ****load of variations from all nations to move to the trinity section.  The "big three" have always been the 'big three' because of where they were made, not their current value.

I just looked in the trinity section....  for the life of me, I cannot find 'bringbacks' in the description.   

[Greasemonkey]

I just gotta ask, for my own sanity and satisfaction. .

A Trinity is composed of 3, this particular Trinity is 3 as well,  NK, NVA and EG..... Now you add another, NK, NVA, EG and BringBack or say, BB. Thats 4 now, now my question does the Trinity now plus 1, suddenly become the Quadnity, or maybe the Holy Quanity?

Just my .02 dull corroded pennies worth, Chinese stay with Chinese, Ruskis stay with Ruskis, and the 'anian variants stay within their respective 'anian group. My vote, keep it simple...but who am I

[Loose}{Cannon]

Who woke up the Sasquatch!?!?

[Worm]

If we're talking about "rare variants" joining the "big three"... then IC's, M21's (of all types), PS Romanians, No Date Alby's, Izhevks, no date Tula's, Soviet-Sino's, etc etc would have to join too.

And if we're talking non-bringbacks joining the "big three", then an entire ****load would have to join too, some being from Canada and not being able to be confirmed as real "bringbacks".

Do I think a rare Chinese Variant should join the big three? No, never, because it isn't a rare country of origin, just a rare variant.

What we should be talking about is eliminating NVA's from the big three, and putting them at M21 Nō status. Thus giving us the "Big two" instead

[DesertJarhead]

Another 2 cents
If it goes up for sale let me know, It appears to have been captured by a Marine and used against the commies. It has sentimental value to me.