Can the NVA be defined by Machining Methods?

[Dannyboy53]

Here are my three bolts that have the tool marks running front of bolt to rear of bolt.


TOP: 3mill  /26\
MIDDLE:  11 mill  /26\
BOTTOM: Russian

[Power Surge]

Here are my three bolts that have the tool marks running front of bolt to rear of bolt.


TOP: 3mill  /26\
MIDDLE:  11 mill  /26\
BOTTOM: Russian

He's looking for Chinese that go the other direction, Danny. He said it backwards, but he's looking for Chinese that start at rear and end at the front.

[Greasemonkey]

My opinion, yeah, I'm gonna throw a wrench into the works, the machine marks say and mean nothing, nada, zero, zilch....... Hold on to them panties for a second, and let me explain.....

Lets go outside the whole NVA/Chinese mumbo jumbo bla bla, outside the box, if you will.

Here we, well I have two carriers, one cut machined forward, one cut machined backwards



Now, the issue is, one is a 1957 Romanian, the other a 1960 Romanian. Huh, Imagine that. Maybe the cut direction is based off the operators mood or was he a righty or a lefty.  But apparently the machine cuts both ways at the operators will, given these are both machined at the Cugir factory.  I'm sure there was no it has to be cut this way or that way, it just had to be cut, cause they said so.

[Power Surge]

I'm a certified machinist, and I'll throw my 2 cents in...

From a production standpoint, it makes sense to use whatever method produces more parts in a shorter time.

If you setup one bolt carrier in the mill, and then mill it from left to right and it's done, it would be a huge waste of time to have to move the cutter back to the starting point for the next part. It would make more sense to leave it where it is, and then cut the next part in the opposite direction.

Now, this also depends on if it was more important to have a good cut, or more important to just rough the material out. The cutter cuts different depending on direction.

Starting at the right, and cutting left, would be a conventional cut. That cuts fastest, and is good for roughing out material. Cutting from the left and cutting right, is called a climb cut. It is not good for roughing, but leaves a nicer finish.

Notice how the bolts that are cut right to left have a much more crude machine finish? That's a conventional cut.

Now, here's the thing.... these are not soft aluminum. These are hardend steel bolt carriers. There is NO way they'd have done a single pass climb cut on these - you'd burn out the cutter in a hurry taking out that much material on a climb cut.

So, im MY opinion, this is not a case of one direction vs the other direction. This is a case of some bolts just got a single rough pass right to left, and other bolts got a second pass back to the right. Now why is that the case? Well that's really the question being asked here.

[Greasemonkey]

And yet another wrench in the machine....This time Yugoslavian "B" and "C" M59s




Proof milling machines have human dictated free will, do I go front to back or back to front,  just like wiping ones backside.

[martin08]

Thanks for all the pics and input on machining practices, folks.  It makes it clear that the only consistency is 'inconsistency' - as long as the job gets done and the gun works.

With the advantage of having two specimens to examine closely, I was hoping to be able to highlight the similar machining features, which might help define a particular factory and/or time frame for production.

Everything still points to Jianshe, but alas, a year(s) of production is still not established.  With the condition observation of Star-1 guns on the whole, my gut does tell me that they were built before the 62-65 time window.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Welp..   Further thinking.


The 58 3m had changed to side swivel mid year and had a narrow font stock #, but did not have the long finger groove in the stock. 

The 59/60 letter guns are a mixed bunch (we dont know order of letters) of narrow font narrow groove, and wide font long groove. 

1960 6m are wide font long groove. 

I really hate putting any emphasise on the stock fonts because their usage is somewhat undefined and sporadic. 

[running-man]

I've got to agree Matt!  Are you aware of any hard data that people use to point to '62 through '65 being a year designator on these guns?  I mean besides the "Look it says "62XXXX" right on the receiver, it must be made in 1962!"  It very well might be that the year is indeed what it says, but these guns would be the absolute earliest "Chinese" guns to bear this style of dating, preceding the suspected 1970 '70' marked guns by a full 8 years and the known 1972 72-XXXXX S/N marked guns by 10!

The reason I ask is that the 70-76 prefixed Chinese guns typically have the prefix only on the receiver (with a few exceptions for some short 5 digit total length numbers) and the piece parts are marked with the 4 or 5 digit rolling S/N.  These NVA marked guns have a full six digit S/N stamped throughout all parts.  The final verified year of the Chinese doing this would have been with the 3 million series /26\ guns (1958).  The letter prefix guns (1959 & perhaps 1960) obviously did this as well, but there is only a 5 character S/N on all the piece parts.  The 6 mil /26\ guns (1961) show us that the Chinese adopted the 5 numeral S/N on piece parts and you don't see full S/N on non-receivers from then on until certain oddballs show up with the smaller arsenals in some 20+ million series.

In this respect, these NVAs have much more in common with the late 3 million /26\ and letter prefix series (1958 through 1960) than they do with the 6 through 10 million /26\ series (1961 through 1965). Everything I see collectively (S/Ns, QC stamps, feature sets, etc.) seems to point to much earlier manufacture than '62 through '65, but unfortunately there is still no individual smoking gun.  Maybe one day we'll find it! 

[Loose}{Cannon]

With the long finger groove on the nva....  I would think they have to be post 1958 because that feature showed up on the letter guns. 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Unless anyone has seen an original nva stock with the narrow groove?

[Dannyboy53]

He's looking for Chinese that go the other direction, Danny. He said it backwards, but he's looking for Chinese that start at rear and end at the front.

Oh...okay, yall know I'll be messed up for a day or two over this!! 

[Worm]

Brain hurts.

[Phosphorus32]

Interesting stuff. Power Surge, I really appreciate the machining description. Pardon my naïve question (since my machining expertise is limited to knowing how to spell the word machinist) is the "circle" an indication of the starting point of the cutting tool or the end point?

martin08, you should buy a lottery ticket, having all 10 of the Chinese bolt carriers spanning many variations and years all end up with the same appearance is a 1 in 2^10 (1/1024) chance, so that is remarkable 

[Power Surge]

Interesting stuff. Power Surge, I really appreciate the machining description. Pardon my naïve question (since my machining expertise is limited to knowing how to spell the word machinist) is the "circle" an indication of the starting point of the cutting tool or the end point?

martin08, you should buy a lottery ticket, having all 10 of the Chinese bolt carriers spanning many variations and years all end up with the same appearance is a 1 in 2^10 (1/1024) chance, so that is remarkable 

It would be the end of the machining operation.

[Loose}{Cannon]

^^^^^^^

[Saigon1965]

Hello Gentlemen -

I am glad to see the discussion regarding NVA SKSs is alive and well -

I've nothing to add - I had wanted to go to VN with my Father but could not make the trip -

It would of been an explortation trip as the goverment is still quite secretive about the past and present -

Best regards -

Saigon1965

Didn't Saigon go to nam and planned to get some kinda proof of indigenous production of an exact copy of a chinese weapon using primative skills and zero history of prior weapons manufactur?  He hasn't said a word about it since his return and it makes one wonder why..

[Loose}{Cannon]

Gotcha..   I could have sworn you went and came back.   

[running-man]

You might be thinking of Crazysquid LC:
On the prowl in Cambodia in Russian SKS - Page 2 of 2

[Loose}{Cannon]

Nope