Can the NVA be defined by Machining Methods?

[Worm]

All the differences in QC marks, milling differences, production techniques, etc, between all the NVA examples we can observe, pretty much tells me these were thrown together from thousands of previously-already-made parts. Throw in a few thousand side swivel stocks (probably used side swivel because that's probably what China was producing at the time they gave the NVA the parts.. pick a year) and you have yourself a few thousand NVA sks's ready to be serialized.

[Worm]

Or hell, maybe China made AND serialized all the guns as a special requested order from the NVA.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Not accepting that the first two are year of manufacture indicates one of two statistical impossibilities.

Oh yeah...  How so?

One if which is that no bring backs with overlapping SN exist in the US which would be over a billion to one

How does this prove anything!?!   How does the consecutive serialization prove the first two digits represent 1962,63,64 !?!?

or that all Bringback NVA rifles are in the bottom half of those produced per year which is about 8 million to one

Wait... what??  Bottom half what??   8m/one..  Wtf are you talking about? 

GREAT explanation as to why we MUST believe the guns were made in 62,63, and 64.   

[Loose}{Cannon]

Hey matt...   One of my ghosts has your mystery stripper guide cuts also.   

[Dannyboy53]

Time frames on military aid to N. Vietnam from two different sources. Emphasis on dates are mine.


CHINESE AID:
...the north Chairman Mao remained concerned about the U.S., in his opinion "the most ferocious enemy of the people of the world." Thus, when senior North Vietnamese leaders, to include General Giap, formally requested Chinese military aid in April of 1965, the response would be swift and sure. The PRC President would tell the Vietnamese that the Chinese people and party were obligated to support the North and therefore "...we will do our best to provide you with whatever you need and whatever we have."

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/20thcentury/articles/chinesesupport.aspx



RUSSIAN AID:
During the 1950s and early 1960s, Moscow had employed a hands-off policy towards the conflict in Southeast Asia. Premier Nikita Khrushchev, for instance, wanted to avoid yet another nuclear standoff as had happened in 1962 in Cuba. But his successors Alexey Kosygin and Leonid Brezhnev wanted to please the hardliners in the Soviet military and consequently ramped up military aid.

By the Spring of 1967, a river of aid was flowing from Russia into North Vietnam.

By the late 1960s more than three-quarters of the military and technical equipment received by North Vietnam was coming from Moscow. Sergei Blagov writes in Asia Times that "Moscow contributed weapons essential to North Vietnamese defence capabilities..."

Vietnam War: The critical role of Russian weapons | Russia & India Report

[Power Surge]

Time frames on military aid to N. Vietnam from two different sources. Emphasis on dates are mine.


CHINESE AID:
...the north Chairman Mao remained concerned about the U.S., in his opinion "the most ferocious enemy of the people of the world." Thus, when senior North Vietnamese leaders, to include General Giap, formally requested Chinese military aid in April of 1965, the response would be swift and sure. The PRC President would tell the Vietnamese that the Chinese people and party were obligated to support the North and therefore "...we will do our best to provide you with whatever you need and whatever we have."

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/20thcentury/articles/chinesesupport.aspx



RUSSIAN AID:
During the 1950s and early 1960s, Moscow had employed a hands-off policy towards the conflict in Southeast Asia. Premier Nikita Khrushchev, for instance, wanted to avoid yet another nuclear standoff as had happened in 1962 in Cuba. But his successors Alexey Kosygin and Leonid Brezhnev wanted to please the hardliners in the Soviet military and consequently ramped up military aid.

By the Spring of 1967, a river of aid was flowing from Russia into North Vietnam.

By the late 1960s more than three-quarters of the military and technical equipment received by North Vietnam was coming from Moscow. Sergei Blagov writes in Asia Times that "Moscow contributed weapons essential to North Vietnamese defence capabilities..."

Vietnam War: The critical role of Russian weapons | Russia & India Report

Well...that's really interesting. Could the NVA guns be built from leftover Russian parts? Has anyone done a dimensional comparison between the NVA star and the Tula stamped or soviet-sino stamped stars???

[Worm]

the prefixes are not dates. they are numbers.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Danny...  I think the chinese support/aid goes back much further. 

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/20thcentury/articles/chinesesupport.aspx

Post-war support, 1955-63

In 1954, with the ending of the First Vietnam War, and the Big Power Geneva conference, Vietnam would be split into two nations, North and South Vietnam. In the north Ho and the party's attention would be focused; at least for several years, on consolidating power and economic development. The inevitable Communist collectivization and tribunals began with confiscations, arrests, localized uprisings and the execution of 15,000 Vietnamese before order could be restored by the PAVN. [41] The CMAG returns to China in September of 1955 having accomplished its mission, quite possibly one of the most successful advisory missions ever. [42]

China would continue; however, to provide substantial levels of military aid for North Vietnam to the tune of $106 million from 1955 to 1963, effectively giving the North the resources needed to begin the insurgency in the South. [43] Thus, the North Vietnamese would form the National Liberation Front, NLF, in December of 1960 and the People's Liberation Armed Forces, PLAF, the following year in 1961. Both the NLF and PLAF would be more commonly referred to as the Viet Cong, or Vietnamese Communists. [44]

A campaign of terror and assassination against the South Vietnamese government would soon begin as thousands of officials would be killed or kidnapped by Viet Cong insurgents. [45] The United States would not sit idly by during this period but began an ambitious program of military aid to the fragile government of South Vietnam. The stage was set, for a second war in Vietnam which would be, once again, fought largely with Chinese military aid.

[Dannyboy53]

You're right, it does. But I only brought up the time line relevent to the conversation sir! You guys will break through to some solid info on this subject one day.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Chinese Chinese Chinese....  Not a single russian QC or proof in sight. BUT China appears to have been heavily dependant on russia for some parts (likely barrels and receivers) up to the 1960 erra.   

Scrapped together from misc parts on hand likely in 1961.  My .02

[Loose}{Cannon]

You're right, it does. But I only brought up the time line relevent to the conversation sir! You guys will break through to some solid info on this subject one day.

Oh... Welp all these guns had to be made prior to 65 simply because of the blade bayo.  . But...  Im sure the actual date of entry could have been sometime later.  I just dont want readers thinking 'no aid from china pre 65'.    Its all good danny!   

[Dannyboy53]

I absolutely agree, for many years China has used North Vietnam and North Korea as "buffer" states, classic example is the war in Korea. Supplying both through the years with whatever they wanted/needed.

[Power Surge]

Chinese Chinese Chinese....  Not a single russian QC or proof in sight. BUT China appears to have been heavily dependant on russia for some parts (likely barrels and receivers) up to the 1960 erra.   

Scrapped together from misc parts on hand likely in 1961.  My .02

I am not denying the Chinese connection. But seriously.... open the picture of your soviet-sino from the guide page and bring up a pic of a late NVA gun's serial and put them side by side. It's the same exact star.

[Worm]

Stars have 5 sides.

Some stars are pregnant though.

[martin08]

I am not denying the Chinese connection. But seriously.... open the picture of your soviet-sino from the guide page and bring up a pic of a late NVA gun's serial and put them side by side. It's the same exact star.

The Star-1 is 2.5mm larger than the Tula star, and is located about an inch forward of the Tula star location.

[Dannyboy53]

Yes, we've discussed this before.  It will be interesting to see if anyone can come up with a picture of a Chinese bolt carrier which has the same steep relief cut in the stripper clip guide.  I can't produce a Chinese with this same cut.

Martin, this is a steep cut in the clip guide from our Chinese rectangle [0306] gun, S/N 21007XX. Pinned barrel, cast rear site base, no lightning cuts on any parts.

Neither my Russian nor other two Chinese have this.

[Loose}{Cannon]

I have early chinese that go both ways... About 50/50.   Here are a few I took pics of where the final tool path direction matches your nva marked guns. 

[Dannyboy53]

I can furnish photos if needed but my Russian & two /26\ guns (3 & 11 mill) show lightning cut tools marks running from front to finish up at the rear of the bolt carrier.

[Loose}{Cannon]

The three I posted, the last tool path travel went from rear to front... Ending at the front.  This is how m08s nva marked guns are. 

[Power Surge]

I am not denying the Chinese connection. But seriously.... open the picture of your soviet-sino from the guide page and bring up a pic of a late NVA gun's serial and put them side by side. It's the same exact star.

The Star-1 is 2.5mm larger than the Tula star, and is located about an inch forward of the Tula star location.

Ok...so someone has checked that, lol. Good to know