Can the NVA be defined by Machining Methods?

[martin08]

I picked up my second  specimen with the Star-1 stamped on the receiver.  As with the first one, I went over every inch of the gun, comparing it to my Chinese Ghost, 6-digit, 2 mil, 3 mil, two Letters, 8 mil, 9 mil, and M21s.  With a vernier caliper in hand, there is no single part which stands out as a different general dimension to the Chinese guns, beyond an acceptable 2-3 thousandths of an inch.   And the receivers on both have Chinese Q/C stamps on the bottom flat.  So, the NVA is built and assembled in China, right?

I doubt we'll answer that question today.  But I do have some interesting machining differences which are consistent between the two Star-1 guns and the Chinese guns.  The differences are subtle, but they may hold clues.

Pic of the Chinese carbine comparison pool.





The two Star-1 guns (643369 and 642551)






Let's start with something something basic, like the machining of the lightening cut.  Both of my Star-1 guns show the mill bit tooling marks begin at the front of the bolt carrier, and move to the rear.  None of my Chinese test subjects show this machine tool pattern, and all begin at the rear and move to the front.  But perhaps someone else has a Chinese gun which shows the front to back machine tool travel (?), which would make this observation a moot point.


Comparison pic of 643369(top) to Chinese(bottom)




Comparison pic of 642551(right) to Chinese(left)

[Loose}{Cannon]

I think you have the tool travel direction backwards.... 

Ill have to look at all my chinese when I get home, but I can tell you that in 1960s world of machining, the direction is subject manual operation in which can start/end in either direction as long as the resulting depth etc are achieved. Even a new vs dull bit can dictate how many passes are required front/back etc.   They didn't exactly have cnc milling machines that are programmed to execute the same passes in the same order etc

Have you seen the other thread?  Can you post the bottom inspection stsmpings from all carbines in question?

[martin08]

Next up on the bolt carrier, the stripper clip guide.

Both of the Star-1 guns have the appearance of a 'squared' stripper clip guide opening, vs the multi-faceted appearance for the Chinese.  This difference is only in visual outward appearance.  The relief cuts on the outer edge of the openings which allow for insertion of the the clips measure precisely the same with calipers.  It is only the steeper angle of the final machining of the relief bevel on the Star-1 which gives it the squared appearance.


643369 (bottom) vs 9 mil Chinese (top)




642551 (right) vs Letter Chinese (right)






Steep angle relief bevel on Star-1




Shallow angle relief bevel on Chinese

[martin08]

I can tell you that in 1960s world of machining, the direction is subject manual operation in which can start/end in either direction as long as the resulting depth etc are achieved.

This may well prove out to be true.  As I have only two Star-1 test subjects for the comparison, it may be that I just received two which were machined in the same direction.

But it was interesting that all of my Chinese guns with the lightening cut were machined in an opposite direction.

Interesting note.  My 1955 through 1958 Russian guns are machined the same as the Star-1 guns......

[Loose}{Cannon]

The stripper guides are also subject to manual machining not to mention the setup across likely dozens of machines.  Do a side/side with two known dif countries and you will see 'real' machining diferences rather then simple tolerance deviations. 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Dont forget about the sheer numbers in which these were made...  Your '64 dated' gun could be 300,000+ off from your 9m even 'if' they are the same year, machine, operator.... List goes on and on.

[martin08]

True.  And as previously mentioned, the machining differences which I am presenting are subtle - basic overall dimensions are identical from part to part, Star-1 to Chinese (Russian, Romanian, Yugo).

But this steep relief cut for the stripper clip guide is consistent with both of my Star-1 guns, and does not appear at all on any of my other Chinese guns, early or late (two dozen or so).  The several Star-1 examples which have been presented by Saigon1965 also exhibit the 'squared' appearance of the stripper clip guide.  So, this steep relief cut practice follows Star-1 examples, but does not follow any Chinese which I can personally observe.

And again, I have limited test subjects.  So it will be interesting to get feedback from others with Star-1, and/or Chinese bolt carriers to compare.  The more specimens, the better!

[Loose}{Cannon]

Its the same cut..... Your looking at a difference in depth in which it was cut.  I remember when you brought this up before... My chinese are all over the map with subtle differences like these.

[Loose}{Cannon]

What years are your nva?

[martin08]

Moving to the front stock ferrule. 

The sheet metal stamping for the final shape of the front stock ferrule is sharper (more squared) on the Star-1 than on any of my early Chinese guns.  This is an extremely difficult phenomenon to photograph.  But I'll try!

First, I have to define the region which the difference is evident.  The front stock ferrule is attached to the barrel by a collar which is pinned to the barrel.  Then there is a 90 degree bend to the shroud portion of the ferrule.  It is within this 90 degree bend that both of the Star-1 specimens exhibit a sharper bend angle than the more sweeping bend angle on any of my Chinese guns.

Again, this is difficult to pick up with photography, but if one observes the cleaning rod hole/channel, it makes machine stamping angle the much easier to visualize.  The rear of the cleaning rod channel appears much wider than the front on the sweeping bend angle of the Chinese ferrule.


Star-1 64369 ferrule




9 mil Chinese ferrule




Star-1 642551 (right) vs Letter Chinese (left)





Star-1





Letter Chinese

[martin08]

Both of my Star-1 are 64-prefix, about 1100 units apart

Its the same cut..... Your looking at a difference in depth in which it was cut.  I remember when you brought this up before... My chinese are all over the map with subtle differences like these.

Yes, we've discussed this before.  It will be interesting to see if anyone can come up with a picture of a Chinese bolt carrier which has the same steep relief cut in the stripper clip guide.  I can't produce a Chinese with this same cut.

[Loose}{Cannon]

1k serials appart and comparing to rifles that could be millions away and years apart.....  Your going to find diferences

Did you notice that china was experimenting with dif stock ferrules made from possibly dif locations having dif shapes in....  1964?

[Loose}{Cannon]

Wait...  Last year you showed this funky ferrule and said it was on an nva.  Whats this on?

[martin08]

Wait...  Last year you showed this funky ferrule and said it was on an nva.  Whats this on?

Not the NVA, but a 9-mil Arab Contract.

But I could equally show a stock ferrule from two dozen other Chinese guns, and none would have the same sharp bend as the two Star-1 guns.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Hmmm.

I'm not seeing any sharp bend thats distinctly dif here that proves to be a dif country.

If I get home and take pics of very very minor production differences...  Will one be made in Nam?

[Loose}{Cannon]

1964 chinese saw a experimentation with the ferrules.... Your showing one right here in this picture.  If china can do this within the same year and then back again...  How is a 'sharp bend' that I cant even see relevant aside from extremely minor production differences within china?

[Loose}{Cannon]

[With a vernier caliper in hand, there is no single part which stands out as a different general dimension to the Chinese guns, beyond an acceptable 2-3 thousandths of an inch.  And the receivers on both have Chinese Q/C stamps on the bottom flat

So in your honest opinion....  What is the hardest evidence we have to date, and where do you think they were produced? 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Didn't Saigon go to nam and planned to get some kinda proof of indigenous production of an exact copy of a chinese weapon using primative skills and zero history of prior weapons manufactur?  He hasn't said a word about it since his return and it makes one wonder why..

[martin08]

Will one be made in Nam?

Whoah!  Jumping to conclusions!   

I have no idea where any of these small parts and bolt carriers were produced/machined.  If I had to guess, it would be China.

But I hope that I am finding subtle differences between my two Star-1 guns and all of my Chinese guns.  Hoping that others will look at their Chinese guns to find parts which are machined/stamped in the same fashion.  Though I have a lot of Chinese guns, I don't have enough to make a statistically significant conclusion.

[Worm]

*yaaaaaaawn*

Did I miss anything new while I was sleepin?

 

Doesn't look like it.