The NVA SKS, Domestically produced rifle or just a property mark?

[Bunker]

LC, do you know if the M21s also has that same stamp on the receiver and are the Star 1 barrels made of the same material as the Chinese during this time period?  IMO (which means nothing) the North Vietnamese at some level had their hand in this, in country.  It may have been just applying their NVA property mark or possibly more but I don't think they were completely absent in the various weapons displaying the Star 1 marking.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Need more date on the three early m21 variation in regards to that stamp, and everyones opinion means something here.   


Other then the barrel contours and milling being the same etc... No, I have not had samples tested for metallurgical comparison.   

Is the RPG you posted thought to be genuine nva? 

[Loose}{Cannon]

The rpg you posted is drastically different.

Also very very crude compared to the Chinese, if this one is infact a Vietnamese unit.  Kinda proves some of our thoughts on the the issue of them not exactly having the abilitly to manufacture the FAR more elaborate milled SKS.  The rpg isnt exactly complicated or elaborate if you catch my drift.

I know they made 'some' things and were not entirely incapable of some level of production, but look at that thing and tell me they (at that time) could have made an exact clone of the T56 right down to the QC stamps and perfectly matching milling etc and I call BS.  An rpk is a tube with a trigger.   

[Bunker]

The rpg you posted is drastically different.

Also very very crude compared to the Chinese, if this one is infact a Vietnamese unit.  Kinda proves some of our thoughts on the the issue of them not exactly having the abilitly to manufacture the FAR more elaborate milled SKS.  The rpg isnt exactly complicated or elaborate if you catch my drift.

I know they made 'some' things and were not entirely incapable of some level of production, but look at that thing and tell me they (at that time) could have made an exact clone of the T56 right down to the QC stamps and perfectly matching milling etc and I call BS.  An rpk is a tube with a trigger.   

No I'm with you...I don't believe they could manufacture the SKS in it's entirety but I do believe there was possibly some level of work going on.  Like I said, possibly just applying their markings but I don't believe they were absent completely.

[Bunker]

Here is the link with detailed photos of that B40 in case anyone is interested in the other photos.

Sword of the Motherland Historical Foundation

[Loose}{Cannon]

 All I can say is, all the components appear to be identical to the same era Chinese sks.  To me, its a rather redundant concept to have parts shipped only to have to assemble them.  Wouldn't it make more sense to ship the parts already assembled?  This reminds me if RMs stament about one truck being taken out and destroying all the gasblocks with it..... How you going to put any of them together?   

I mean....  If the kurds need a hummer and we air drop them components to build one, how is that helping?        At some point there needs to be common sence.

[Bunker]

I agree and makes perfect sense...not disputing that at all.  We may never know where the Star 1 markings were applied but my guess is somewhere within Vietnam and I may be alone with that opinion.  Here is presumably one of their underground facilities, which is the only pic I've seen of any facility during the Vietnam War (other than VC workshops), assuming that to be the case.  Not saying it has anything to do with the discussion but interesting photo nevertheless.

[Greasemonkey]

How would a NVA/Chinese any different than any other contract weapon, just how many Mausers are made by one nation, but crested and stamped ownership by the buyer, just about all the South American Mausers are, 98% of them were either made in Germany, Belgium, or Czechoslovakia. The M47 Madsen, made in Denmark, marked all over as Colombian, all of the Fn-49, Fn-FALs, Hi-Power pistols, Browning shotguns.

[Bunker]

It's no different at all and I'm not disagreeing...I really don't know but vetting everything I can think of as to why not for discussion.  We would also have to discount all intelligence reports to date and agree that they did not have their hand in the SKS at all and China shipped them complete with the Star 1 markings being applied in China. Like I said, not disagreeing but I'm not completely sold either.

[Loose}{Cannon]

It's no different at all and I'm not disagreeing...I really don't know but vetting everything I can think of as to why not for discussion.  We would also have to discount all intelligence reports to date and agree that they did not have their hand in the SKS at all and China shipped them complete with the Star 1 markings being applied in China. Like I said, not disagreeing but I'm not completely sold either.

I dont think that the CIA docs presented in this thread are evidence of much of anything... and we have just that one report.  Just my 02.   Remeber, guy picks up gun and said gun has a star1 and instantly reports nva carbine.  If the report is in fact refering to an sks, it reported what was observed, not what it actually was not to mention a gun made for the nva could still be concidered an nva weapon. 

I really dont know if the stamp was applied in china or in NV as I'm not sold on either one at this point.  I dont think its a stretch the nva had reps in China marking destination aid rifles, and they could have been star1 stamped in NV also. 

To me, where the stamp was applied isn't the meat and potatoes... Its the salt and pepper.  These guns are nva marked and thier collectability and value are not effected by where the stamp was applied or if its a Chinese rifle with a property mark.  These guns don't need papers if you know what I mean.

[Loose}{Cannon]

How would a NVA/Chinese any different than any other contract weapon, just how many Mausers are made by one nation, but crested and stamped ownership by the buyer, just about all the South American Mausers are, 98% of them were either made in Germany, Belgium, or Czechoslovakia. The M47 Madsen, made in Denmark, marked all over as Colombian, all of the Fn-49, Fn-FALs, Hi-Power pistols, Browning shotguns.

Another good point GM... 

[Bunker]

I buy that!  I've seen several intel reports and I'll see what I can did up.  Didn't save a whole lot but they are really talking "Country of Origin", and what that defines I don't know but they make a clear distinction between USSR, China, North Vietnam and the like, and they must have done that for a reason, otherwise they would all just say China.  I believe I seen one that lists the M21 as China (country of origin).  Again, I don't know but like you said, it's really just salt and pepper. 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Welp..  If i were to investigate the origins of weapons and I were the first to record/report such a critter that was only nva marked along with a serial #, I would report it as an nva weapon.  The problem is.... Some years later, I think the story does not start nor does it end there. 

The star1 is only surface deep, and I do not believe NV actually made the guns.

[Bunker]

That I surely agree with!

[Greasemonkey]

But, how can a nation who had no weapon manufacturing tech or knowledge, all of the sudden manufacture an SKS. It took a while for Russia to work out the bugs, I'm sure China had a time. You can't make bikes and coolie carts one day, then an SKS the next day 

Ok, you know the game, I have a niggling feeling, you and I have played it, elsewhere   , let's play, what if!! What if, in '62-'65 the NVA stamped their mark and serial on the Chinese, the war wasn't raging quite yet, it was on simmer. They had time to piddle, stock up, and stamp rifles. After '65, the coals were being poured to them, B52 bombers and Iowa class battleships were all the rage, they told China send us what you have, anything, stamped or not, enter the M21 stuff. 

So, where does this leave us, a once sterile Chinese SKS with actual NVA stamps, stamped by NVA peoples, or the Chinese just property stamped the NVA rifle. The latter of which kinda would make some sense, since China stamped the M21 and the M22 as a contract weapon, why not just stamp the Star1 for the NVA and just ship it. They get them, uncrate, load and go. In the end, it's a 50-50 guess either way.

Sure they may have made small arms, stamped weapons, you can make a Ak receiver in your garage, Kyber Pass, they can make an Enfield out of a truck fender and a Webley out of a railroad spike. But, lets see them machine an SKS receiver.

And, again, would you be willing to bet your life, your collection, something of extreme value on the accuracy of those intelligence reports. Sure, it's our Government agency, our hard earned tax dollars at work, they wouldn't dare produce fraudulent information, now would they. Their own history and known twisted web of lies, cover ups, scandals and what not, throws them out of the equation, period.

Now  , lets just ask the big one, clear the air, get it out in the open, cause it's weighing heavily on everyone's mind who is reading this........    would a bonafide "true blue" Star1 NVA stamp have any more value than a Chinese stamped Star1 NVA mark?  I mean, in the end, it's all about the $$$$, right. 

[Bunker]

I follow you kind of and I'll say again, I'm not disagreeing with anyone.  I do believe these rifles came from China, no doubt in my mind, LC clearly proved that, but I said and I'll say again, where they got marked was my question, which LC eloquently stated is the salt and pepper, which I agree, and much more than we know now or knew then is yet to be discovered.  I fully agree. 

Not sure what you mean by we played some game before, I'm way to old for that stuff and I don't play games with anyone and frankly I take offense to that, can you please elaborate?  Sorry if I offended anyone, that was not my intention.  My intention was to learn and have a good discussion.  I'll drop the subject entirely...again sorry.

[Greasemonkey]

Offence was not my intention    I was mistaken, and suffered a flashback from a former time.

Where they got marked is anyones best guess, truthfully it may never be known. There are 9 million whys and very limited answers. Much like 99% of the foreign weapons, the nations who owned them don't release much info, if any, much less,  formerly communist nations.  Call it, fear, still stuck in the Cold War, even time could have flat out erased the info, so, there may be no right answer. Even some domestic weapons, info is sketchy.

It boils down to 2, with a curve ball thrown in for extra measure in choices, either China stamped them or North Vietnam stamped them. Now, given there are two separate, slightly different NVA stamps, that adds the curve ball, maybe China stamped a batch, then the NVA stamped a batch.

[Saigon1965]

This item belongs to a friend - He got it from the Vet - Lonnie Patten - Lonnie found out he had only some time left on this earth and began to sell off his stuff -

Lonnie brought home "a lot" of stuff -

Please read the article below - It describes the action and the said RPG -






Something to think about here - A documented bring back SVD in the same collection -

Note Star 1 and the "Made in the Soviet Union" stamping -

[Loose}{Cannon]

The rpg also has a star2 stamp and not a star1.   

I guess I'm failing to see the connection on these other weapons and what they have to do with the T56. 

[Saigon1965]

I am just trying to provide some additional weapons from same era with different markings and perhaps it'll hit something for us in our search -