Chinese sight leafs, somewhat explained perhaps?

[Worm]

Something I have observed over time and have been curious about since the beginning of my journey through the SKS rifle realm has been the different sight leaf symbols at the bottom.

We all know the different countries marks, Romanian has the I, Albania has a D, Korea has a scribble and on and on & on.

But we don't know why China has 4 different marks. (Unless I'm way behind and missed a discussion on these already)

П
3
III
D

What i'm thinking is that the D's tend to be on guns that are meant for a specific purpose, designation to a certain unit, or possibly delivery as aid to a small country or group.

Of course this is all based on what I've observed only & I could be way off base here.
But there's a very distinct pattern I tend to see..


DP's and DB's have the D sight leaf.

DP:






Security Forces also rock the D








These below are what actually made me curious about the sight leafs. I see these Chicoms of random factories with a battle patina, that always tend to have a D sight leaf, and never have Norinco Export marks meaning they could have came from somewhere else. Delivery? Designated?

Very worn oddball factory gun






Another worn oddball factory gun





And I tend to see Many fitting the same description ^^ but most are in worse shape like the first one.


The early M21's sent to Vietnam also have D's.

Early M21




Another Early M21 (Thanks Padams!)





The Cyrillic "U" we tend to see on the earlier to mid Jianshe guns, and were obviously military and military aid.

When you begin to look at Chicoms with 3's, they never have battle patina, if anything, bubba-patina (lol) and more than likely have Norinco Export marks.

I believe the 3's to have been designated mainly for export for civilian use.

The III's we start to see later on by Jianshe were exported here from Norinco from all the examples I've seen, and have also been seen on bring backs & pictures from in the field. Such as late M21's found in Afghanistan & Loose_Cannon's Iraqi bring back.

III's are a bit of a mystery to me, unless they were just, export tooooo anywhere?


Anyways, like I stated earlier, this was mainly about my curiosity with the D's anyways, which we tend to see a pattern with. Keep an eye out and you'll start to notice the same!!

[Greasemonkey]

Just a thought, "IF" the rear sight mark designates it's use, what if it's purpose was so an open crate of rifles could be easily identified.  If your walking around a warehouse with multiple open crates packed of weapons, the rear sight is in plain view, say a rouge country ordered a crate or 10, oh look, a crate full of "D" rear sights, ship it, or, the Americans need more, oh look, a 100 crates full of "3"s, ship'em all, take them out a whole new door.

And the poor guy ain't got to pick every rifle up and check it's numbers or other marks, it's already marked, because what's the first thing seen when one looks in a crate full of rifles?

Again, just a thought, I'll go away now

[Worm]

Hey great thinkin!  more support for the hypothesis  Just an easier way to ship "These" rifles rather than looking at a serial range.

[running-man]

It could be…I would have thought there'd be paperwork associated with them so they don't even have to break open a crate to see what's inside.

I'll start compiling the data from the survey on the battle sight settings.  Those are easy to fill out in the survey and should be very consistent…

I've always thought it was a П->D->3->III progression rather than a D goes to this particular rifle, 3 goes to this one, III to that one.  It could very well be though.  Now that we have a better handle on the non-/26\ dating, we can really dig down into the details by production year and arsenal and see what kind of patterns emerge….

Good thread Mitch, you get an attaboy for this one for certain!   

[Worm]

Thanks RM! 

I don't think it was a specific order.. If so, why is there a D leaf on a 23+55 era gun, when sitting in my safe at home I have a 3 leaf on a 17+55 era gun?

And if that were to change the order so D would come after 3 instead of before it... Then why do the early M21's have the D's? 

See what I'm sayin? I think the Chinese were just.. Organized.

Check your survey, see what we find. But remember, if most don't have pics, you can't see that battle patina like I'm talking about. I see it all too often on oddball factories with the D leaf.

[running-man]

Good questions to ask for certain.  One caveat I'll toss in before we get too far, remember that the rear sight leaf is a ridiculously easy component to replace. Maybe not as easy as a gas tube or receiver cover, but certainly easier than a stock.  I have my favorite Alby truck gun that has a Russian П sight on it.  Patina looks perfect on it, it certainly fits with the gun but it's an obvious field replacement part (Trigger group is from a Russian gun as well). I was confused as hell when I first got the gun back in 2003, but with all the replacement stuff on the Sino-banians and our understanding of the Russian sneaks, it makes total sense now. 

The condition observation you've made with the rectangle and 'oddball' arsenals is pretty interesting.  I've got a bunch of photos I've squirreled away from GB listings…there very well may be a correlation there.  I certainly hand't really paid attention to it.  Good catch though! 

[Greasemonkey]

Ok, curiosity question, the "D", the trend is logical, say internal use or "loyal" Chinese supporters maybe. Makes since, Albania having a "D", they were loyal to China, as were the Public Security Force and ones sent to Vietnam.

See what I'm sayin? I think the Chinese were just.. Organized.

But, just for giggles, both my Mak 90s rear sight blades are "D" marked.   I know, bla, bla , it's a frickin Ak GM , apple to oranges, just remember, some of the same factories that were producing the Ak, also produced alot of these SKSs at the same time. I mean they are after all both "Type 56s"  Why would one models rifle "D" mark possibly designate something different than another rifle "D" mark in the same spot. "IF" they were this organized, then the marks in theory should mean the same regardless of the model weapon.

It's more of a curiosity question.

[Worm]

Good questions to ask for certain.  One caveat I'll toss in before we get too far, remember that the rear sight leaf is a ridiculously easy component to replace. Maybe not as easy as a gas tube or receiver cover, but certainly easier than a stock.  I have my favorite Alby truck gun that has a Russian П sight on it.  Patina looks perfect on it, it certainly fits with the gun but it's an obvious field replacement part (Trigger group is from a Russian gun as well). I was confused as hell when I first got the gun back in 2003, but with all the replacement stuff on the Sino-banians and our understanding of the Russian sneaks, it makes total sense now. 

The condition observation you've made with the rectangle and 'oddball' arsenals is pretty interesting.  I've got a bunch of photos I've squirreled away from GB listings…there very well may be a correlation there.  I certainly hand't really paid attention to it.  Good catch though! 

They absolutly could be replaced. No doubt about that. Heck, I recently saw a DB (or DP) with a 3 instead of a D (cant remember where).. But every other I've seen has a D.

When you see a dozen or more of the non jianshe factories, with similar battle patina on the metal and worn stocks to match, most of which don't come from Norinco exporting, all sporting the D's, it makes you question it; especially when you have other "special" Chinese guns like the early M21's, security forces, DB's, & DP's also sporting the D.. It makes you question it even more!!

But you know where I'm coming from.

Ok, curiosity question, the "D", the trend is logical, say internal use or "loyal" Chinese supporters maybe. Makes since, Albania having a "D", they were loyal to China, as were the Public Security Force and ones sent to Vietnam.

But, just for giggles, both my Mak 90s rear sight blades are "D" marked.   I know, bla, bla , it's a frickin Ak GM , apple to oranges, just remember, some of the same factories that were producing the Ak, also produced alot of these SKSs at the same time. I mean they are after all both "Type 56s"  Why would one models rifle "D" mark possibly designate something different than another rifle "D" mark in the same spot.

It's more of a curiosity question.

That's a good question.

Remember though, it's a slightly different story when it comes to civi AK's. The Chinese weren't giving us surplus AK's that did time so there's really nopattern to observe. They were producing the civic AK's from new and new/old stock spare AK material. I can see them using multiple sight leafs on the civi AK's sent here. My Poly had a D too. Seems as though most Chinese civi AK's do. No idea man, all I know is I see what I see with these D SKS's, it's a pretty noticable pattern. Not so much with the AK's.

Here's a Polytech just like mine was, but has the cyrillic.

[Greasemonkey]

My Security Forces has a III stamped sight, and my /636\ has a П rear sight. I wanted to see if your trend was correct, guess mine are non-conformist, replaced, or?

[Worm]

Not all non-jianshe have D's.. Just mainly the ones that tend to look as if they've done some serious time.. So as for your /636\, that could pretty much have anything.

Your security forces however, no idea. Maybe most were III's? Maybe the few D's I've seen were replaced? Maybe yours was? Maybe it's completely random..? Dunno

[Loose}{Cannon]

  All Jianshe guns to 1970 has the n, the 1978/79 23 and 24m had the 3.....  not the III. This includes my Iraqi which has a 3.  You got those two backwards.  Any D found on a sub 70 jianshe is a replacement, unless its an early m21.

[Loose}{Cannon]

But yes....  the early m21 was found in Nam prior to 1970, so its a Jianshe rifle. They sport the D which supports Worms theory.

[Worm]

Thanks for the correction. woopsie!

[brentb636]

Thanks RM! 

I don't think it was a specific order.. If so, why is there a D leaf on a 23+55 era gun, when sitting in my safe at home I have a 3 leaf on a 17+55 era gun?

And if that were to change the order so D would come after 3 instead of before it... Then why do the early M21's have the D's? 

See what I'm sayin? I think the Chinese were just.. Organized.

Check your survey, see what we find. But remember, if most don't have pics, you can't see that battle patina like I'm talking about. I see it all too often on oddball factories with the D leaf.

I suspect that the early rifles were all the military version, and perhaps a little later, this sight ID system came into place as sks "policy" became more codified.  At any rate, it'll be real interesting to see what a statistical analysis shows. 

Brent

[armedhippie]

Love threads that give me an excuse to dig through the safe 

My /016\  Security Forces Has a 3 marked sight ( and oddly enough has been EP'd to match the gun, can't say I've seen that alot on any of my chinese)

My only Norinco stamped is a [0410] cut down "paratrooper". It also has a 3 sight leaf.

My LGS has a DB that has a D marked sight leaf.

[Worm]

Brent, I agree.

Hippie, I too have an /016\, 3 on the sight leaf. Thanks for another DB to add to the D list! See what I mean? pretty consistent.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Now I'm confuseed on whether the 23/24m has a 3 or a III....   

[Dannyboy53]

Mary's [0306] 210079X gun has a "3" on the rear sight. The rear sight base is cast and the sight leaf appears shiney & new. It gives the overall impression (compared to the rest of the carbine) as being a replacement. Our two /26\ guns have the П and pretty much match the carbines as to patina.

[Worm]

Now I'm confuseed on whether the 23/24m has a 3 or a III....   

They III's bro!  I just think you have too many SKS's and it boggles your brain! 

Mary's [0306] 210079X gun has a "3" on the rear sight. The rear sight base is cast and the sight leaf appears shiney & new. It gives the overall impression (compared to the rest of the carbine) as being a replacement. Our two /26\ guns have the П and pretty much match the carbines as to patina.

Danny, the [0306] I had also had a 3. Whether or not yours had a replacement rear sight, 3 would probably be correct 

[Dannyboy53]

Danny, the [0306] I had also had a 3. Whether or not yours had a replacement rear sight, 3 would probably be correct 

That's what I was wondering Worm, thanks!