Author Topic: Stock numbers  (Read 444 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline shotout

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Cadet
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Stock numbers
« on: January 13, 2020, 02:30:43 PM »
What is the largest stock number recorded here? 7 digit and up? Million range?

Offline firstchoice

  • BATTLEFIELD COMMISSION
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Marksman
  • *
  • Posts: 826
  • "The Rolling W"-A.E.F. 89th Division-WW1-1917-1918
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2020, 02:29:34 AM »
Are you referring to the serial number stamped into the side of the wooden stocks? Many, if not most of the stocks only have a portion of the serial number on them, usually the last 4-5 digits of the SN. There are some that only have 3 digits and some that have 6 or more. I don't recall which year or arsenal it was that put the whole SN on the stock, but it did happen. Seems like it was an 8 digit SN on the side of that stock.

As far as the "highest" SN recorded on a stock, it would have to be one of the ones that used the entire SN. Like a 21-24 million number. RM could probably give you a more detailed, accurate answer on this.

firstchoice

Offline Boris Badinov

  • SKS-FILES CONTRIBUTOR
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Marksman
  • *
  • Posts: 814
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2020, 10:04:45 AM »
Six digit stock serials on the guns are the largest I've ever seen.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 01:58:51 PM by Boris Badinov »

Online running-man

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sniper
  • *
  • Posts: 5138
  • The only way to avoid Mosin #2 is avoid Mosin #1!
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2020, 11:45:43 AM »
8 digits are the most I've ever seen on a stock.  It runs the gamut from 4 to 8 though (there may be a 3 digit gun, but I can't find it in the 5 minutes I just looked).  I have never seen one with 7 digits (ie. 9,XXX,XXX) likely because the 2 mil to 9 mil guns were all /26\ arsenal and those early guns were all 6 or 5 digits.  Highest 8 digit number I see is a 23 mil.

8:


6:


5:


4:


I think it's easy to see why 8 digits never caught on as a standard marking provision..too easy to screw up a number:

« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 11:49:53 AM by running-man »
      

Offline shotout

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Cadet
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2020, 11:54:30 AM »
That 23 million full serial number on stock is pretty neat. It just looks kind of crazy to have that many numbers on a stock.

Offline Steelmonkey

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newber
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2020, 08:24:55 AM »
Here's mine



Offline Randy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Cadet
  • *
  • Posts: 74
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2020, 09:11:30 PM »
Does anyone know if the stock numbers were rolled in or hand punched one by one?

Online running-man

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sniper
  • *
  • Posts: 5138
  • The only way to avoid Mosin #2 is avoid Mosin #1!
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2020, 10:13:34 AM »
Late Chinese stock numbers are nearly always straight and evenly spaced.  Likely a set of insertable numerals placed in a jig which is then loaded into some kind of press or perhaps you're right with it being some type of a roll press. I've never looked in detail to see if the center numerals are deeper than the outer ones.
      

Offline Randy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Cadet
  • *
  • Posts: 74
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2020, 05:39:33 PM »
It would make more sense to hand punch them. Setting up a machine back in those days would be labor intensive.

Lay a piece of tape to get a straight line and line them up side by side. A bit of experience would allow the hammer operator to make each one pretty near the same depth all the way across.

However, in the picture Steelmonkey posted the last numeral is slightly higher than the rest. A dead giveaway. But the numbers on your 8 digit stock are nearly perfect. However, and this could be parallax (??), it looks like the -390- are slightly lower in relation to the rest. And on the 6 digit the -3- was miss-stamped.

So, I guess now that I look at them the stocks were, for the most part anyway, hand stamped. Of course, my few observations aren't conclusive. But given the time frame they were done....?

Online Larry D.

  • Bitter, Clinging Deplorable
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Marksman
  • *
  • Posts: 911
  • Do the next right thing.
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2020, 11:28:05 AM »
Very nice examples.
Personally, I've never seen more than 4 digits. A couple of times it was 2 sets of 4 digits, one set having been lined out.
Η ΤΑΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ

Online running-man

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sniper
  • *
  • Posts: 5138
  • The only way to avoid Mosin #2 is avoid Mosin #1!
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2020, 12:00:27 PM »
I'd agree with you that early Chinese guns may have been hand stamped:


But for the late Chinese guns, I think it makes more sense that they jigged them somehow and didn't have the need for an experienced operator to precisely perform this function 100's of times per day & 1000's of times per year.  In this way, with minimal training anyone at the factory could generate a reasonably nicely stamped stock.  Minor variations in the position, rotation, etc. of any individual number could be explained by clearances in the jig, I'm sure it wasn't a precision piece of machinery, just something that was able to hold and line up the individual numerals so they could be done in one pass with a press.  I honestly don't know how such consistent spacing could be made stamping the numerals one at a time. 

You see evidence of hand stamping with known replacement numbers on a good many Chinese SKS stocks, 





but for the most part, the late Chinese stocks have nice straight even original S/N stampings. 
      

Online Larry D.

  • Bitter, Clinging Deplorable
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Marksman
  • *
  • Posts: 911
  • Do the next right thing.
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2020, 12:14:53 PM »
That one with the stock repair is really cool.
Η ΤΑΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ

Offline Randy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Cadet
  • *
  • Posts: 74
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2020, 05:21:28 PM »
I'm tending to see your point. I think I'll try and see if I can find some sort of vintage machine that was used for that or a similar purpose. The way my brain works is to go instantly to that time period and formulate a process by which speed and accuracy could be accomplished.

The problems I see with a machine press is that the motion is linear whereas the stock face has a radius. This would eliminate any vertical presses I'm aware of for that time period.

What might make sense is a type of machine similar to an old typewriter. It would only need 10 digits and the special characters used in that arsenal. It might have worked something like this>  Shove the stock in till it contacts the fence, have a slide to form fit one side of the stock to hold it steady, press a button and a spring loaded stamp hits, move the stock over to the next detent, hit the appropriate button for the next number, and so on. Just speculation.

I think this is an interesting thought to pursue. How they stamped the stocks.

Online Larry D.

  • Bitter, Clinging Deplorable
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Marksman
  • *
  • Posts: 911
  • Do the next right thing.
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2020, 05:24:22 PM »
We have a typewriter sort of machine for dog tags, wouldn't something similar, but much larger, work?
Η ΤΑΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ

Offline Randy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Cadet
  • *
  • Posts: 74
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2020, 06:14:39 PM »
If it could be adapted to work on a curved surface it seems like it would. Just got to remember the time frame. We have technology now that didn't exist back then. But anything is possible.

If you are old enough to remember manual typewriters you'll see what I am talking about.

For those that aren't old enough this is how they worked>

The individual arms of a typewriter each had a weighted stamp on the end of them. The arms were of various lengths but lined up in a semi-circular row with the hinged portion much narrower than the stamp end portion. As a button was pushed it swung the stamp in an arc towards the paper on a rubberized roll. Each arm was made so each individual stamp would contact the same exact place on the rubberized roll. For the typewriter this where the similarities would likely end because to put a typed letter on paper ink had to be used. Therefore there was a two colored ribbon in a typewriter. The colors varied but were normally red and black. As the machine swung the stamps the ribbon would move in between the stamp and the paper transferring the color to the paper.

Could they have possibly used a similar type of machine, only with devices to move the stock into the correct position for the next stamp? If so, obviously it would have to have been a much stronger machine with the weight or springs behind it to actually crunch into the wood. Just more speculation though.

I've tried searching for vintage production wood stock stamping machines but not finding much more than individual hand stamps. I did find a roller style that could have been used but the one I found was made specifically for metal.

Still, I agree that hand stamping was likely slow and tedious work. But on the other hand they were communist countries. Forced labor and all that misery. Do a good job or die, type of work. A hundred men in a shop just hand stamping stocks wouldn't be out of the question. 

Offline Bacarnal

  • SKS-FILES CONTRIBUTOR
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Marksman
  • *
  • Posts: 432
  • If it's 2020, why are so many afflicted by myopia?
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2020, 07:40:09 PM »
It might be more simple than that, Randy.  Here are some pictures I cadged from Ebay of a hand stamper...




Wu starts out with serial block 0001 with the corresponding stamps. Stamps 0001, undoes fixture latch/pin/holder, takes out #1 and replaces with #2, secures fixture, stamps 0002, etcetera.  Cheers, Bruce.

Online Larry D.

  • Bitter, Clinging Deplorable
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Marksman
  • *
  • Posts: 911
  • Do the next right thing.
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2020, 08:00:57 PM »
We had a similar manual set up for marking angle iron at work.
I was thinking of a machine because of the amount of stamping required to maintain output.
Η ΤΑΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ

Offline Bacarnal

  • SKS-FILES CONTRIBUTOR
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Marksman
  • *
  • Posts: 432
  • If it's 2020, why are so many afflicted by myopia?
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2020, 08:12:46 PM »
I've seen pictures of how they stamped the serials on Garands and M1 Carbines, and it wasn't much more complicated than that hand stamp, other than having a curve to follow the profile and a jig to hold the receiver.  Put all of the stamps in one fixture, including manufacture, change out the stamp for each consecutive number, and it had a trip hammer so striking a block wasn't necessary. We've gotten way to complex now a days.

Offline Randy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Cadet
  • *
  • Posts: 74
Re: Stock numbers
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2020, 09:12:59 PM »
Way to complex!

And I think my simple question has veered off course considerably.

Nevertheless, my thoughts of combloc countries are that there was lot's of cheap/free labor, few labor laws, low wages, it's not like the last 50 years (1970-today). The rifles built early on, especially in southeast Asia, were (IMHO) more likely to be rebuilt in a shop with this kind of labor being overseen by experienced gunsmiths. All for one! type of thing.

My younger brother was stationed in northern South Korea for two years back in the middle 80's. He said sweat shops were on every street. Child labor was everywhere. So it's not hard to imagine how life was before that.