IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)

[Loose}{Cannon]

My issue with it is....   

It seems like 99% of the qualities that identifies them i.e the random painted parts, crazy sloppy shellac over sling hardware and crossbolts etc tells me their "refurb" abilities were minimal at best and every last one of them appears to have been used to the last drop.  So the ones in Mint condition I find it extremely hard to believe they would have A: had the ability to make them look new new, and B: not have used them. 

[Worm]

Meh, your 12 mill w/ arabic markings is in decent shape. The 12 mill I found with trench art still had its original stock & was in good shape. Plenty of blued carrier/lammy stocked ones are in good shape that don't have the norinco stamp. It's possible they weren't used a whole lot after a certain point, or, maybe the blued/lammy config' was something they did not long before we got them?

Idk, I don't think a reblue & slapping a spare stock on a gun would be that impossible to accomplish, though who knows, maybe?

I've only encountered two blued/lammies w/ the Norinco stamp, both of which were certainly in good shape, but a full reblue can do that.. The fact that we see Syrians in the more recent conflicts with blued carrier chicoms could also mean that they were responsible for the refurb process (if that's what it is), and they're certainly more capable of such a thing than the guerrilla PLO of the mid 20th century. And I have no doubt guns swapped between Labenon & Syria, probably multiple times before the 80's.

I just can't think of a reason the Chinese would rip the original stock off of "some" of the guns they planned on shipping, slap on an unnumbered Russian stock, reblue the gun & carrier & then ship em off to the same place the non-blued/lammys (obviously) went. Then again, China did some weird crap with SKSs, so you may very well be right.

Of course, we can guess all day long. Unfortunately there's just a lack of info when it comes to this and guessing is all it'll probably ever be, although it is a fun topic for discussion

[Loose}{Cannon]

I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that China had NOS laminates.  I also don't think it would be much trouble for a state or faction to 'order' guns with blued bolt carriers....  I don't think the entire gun was reblued.  I don't see why they couldn't have left /26\ with blued carriers and leftover russian stocks they had laying around.  China likely received the stocks back when they received parts to make rifles with little stars on the receivers, and we know russian guns with little stars on the receivers came with laminated stocks. 

Its been my opinion for years now since you and I hit this topic hard, that the laminated variation with blued carriers were likely purchased that way by Syria, the aided guns to the PLO were standard. From there its only natural they intermingled as you outlined. 

[Worm]

I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that China had NOS laminates.  I also don't think it would be much trouble for a state or faction to 'order' guns with blued bolt carriers....  I don't think the entire gun was reblued.  I don't see why they couldn't have left /26\ with blued carriers and leftover russian stocks they had laying around.  China likely received the stocks back when they received parts to make rifles with little stars on the receivers, and we know russian guns with little stars on the receivers came with laminated stocks. 

Its been my opinion for years now since you and I hit this topic hard, that the laminated variation with blued carriers were likely purchased that way by Syria, the aided guns to the PLO were standard. From there its only natural they intermingled as you outlined.

That certainly is a possibility, one that I haven’t thought about in a while. You do only see blued carriers in Syria & white ones in Palestine.

[Loose}{Cannon]

No telling what the Palestinians are toting around these days, but we keep seeing the laminated version in recent Syria conflict pics. 

[Worm]

No telling what the Palestinians are toting around these days, but we keep seeing the laminated version in recent Syria conflict pics.

Yep. And they're definitely blued, too. That isn't some kind of rusty patina or anything. I actually collected a few more pics from videos where I saw them, but I lost everything a few months back. I mean, they were close up shots of dark purple carriers. It was identical to what we have. I should start watching Syrian videos again to try to find more. If only we could get a close enough video to see them serial numbers & factory marks!

[Loose}{Cannon]

[Worm]

Yep. Those are the originals we found. Clearly blued.

I found more in videos that I took snapshots of. Lost em though

[Justin Hell]

Is there a particular range that the ones with dual bayo slots appear in?

If the Chinese were sending aid guns, it wouldn't surprise me if they just cleaned house with whatever they had on hand...perhaps some guns were stocked normally, others used up laminate stocks....some modified to handle both bayonets of either flavor.   It seems like I have seen more than a few that might have a spike ferrule and a blade bayonet is on it.  Was that a common thing to see on some of these?

[Worm]

Is there a particular range that the ones with dual bayo slots appear in?

If the Chinese were sending aid guns, it wouldn't surprise me if they just cleaned house with whatever they had on hand...perhaps some guns were stocked normally, others used up laminate stocks....some modified to handle both bayonets of either flavor.   It seems like I have seen more than a few that might have a spike ferrule and a blade bayonet is on it.  Was that a common thing to see on some of these?

The two main ranges are within 9 & 12 mill /26\s, both which contain the regular stock configuration rifles & the blued carrier/double bayo cut lammy guns mixed throughout them.

I haven't come across any of these guns wearing the opposite bayo than they should, personally. Disregarding the rifles missing bayos, the 9s always have their blades, 12s always have their spikes, the oddballs outside of those ranges all have the bayos they're supposed to.

[Loose}{Cannon]

The laminated 12m I bought from Worm has the blued carrier and a blade cut laminate, however the stock didn't have the second cut for the spike.  I had to make that cut myself. 


https://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=690.msg8405#msg8405

[Justin Hell]

It really does seem plausible that those stocks with the dual cut may have come along for the ride with the 9m surplus (I assume) It would be interesting to find out if my 9.1m spiker originally may have come with a dual cut stock. It came to the US in an unserialed replacement.  It seems to me a hardwood wouldn't survive as long as a laminate as a dual cut.  With the move towards the short lug, those odd laminates China likely had laying around became less and less likely to receive a home. With it being aid vs. a sale, it makes sense some oddballs were natural choices to send.

I have only seen one dual cut stock available for sale...likely from an IC. I want to say it was hardwood. Has anyone seen a 'normal' SKS come out of China with one from the changeover time frame?  Were these blade cut with a spike channel added, or vise versa?

These are interesting beasts, very difficult to spot compared to others...and I daresay many if not most current owners likely don't know what they have...and when selling never include the crucial photos I suppose?    I will have to keep an eye out to maybe snag one of these for a steal sometime. My letter gun project likely would garner a couple of views for folks looking out for one. Once I swap out the polished bayo for a matte one. In it's laminate, with a spare blued carrier...I kind of inadvertantly made a faux IC.

[Worm]

Best thing you can do is look for the import mark. If you can't see it & suspect it's an IC, ask for pics. Usually the seller will send you pics or tell you where & what the mark says. People definitely don't know what they have most of the time when it comes to these. I suspect most people would only know if they saw Arabic rack/unit marks. And even then, I don't wanna know how many Bubba has destroyed.

Here are three currently for sale. All a little too pricey, IMO. The synthetic stock one is their typical configuration you see these days. The other two are gems, but all are about $200 higher than I'm willing to pay. Just my opinion

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/800557229

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/century-arms-rifles/century-arms-sks.cfm?gun_id=101162492

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/century-arms-rifles/century-arms-sks.cfm?gun_id=101161809

Interesting theory about the 9 mills w/ the double bayo cuts. I haven't personally seen any come here from China sporting double cut bayos in their stocks, or laminate, but then again I haven't looked very hard. Both Norinco marked (suggesting China export to US) blued carrier/double cut laminate guns I've seen were 12 mills.

I have never seen a double bayo cut on a hardwood. They've all been laminates on ICs as far as I know. Chinese hardwood & Russian hardwood as well as (numbered) laminate replacement stocks are common on them and all of those have been regular, one bayo cut.

[Loose}{Cannon]

One in the third link doesn't seem to be cut for the spike.

[Worm]

One in the third link doesn't seem to be cut for the spike.

Yep, thanks for pointing that out. I probably should've mentioned that being it's the topic of our current discussion n' all.

[Stoned_Oli]

Awesome

My "G"7544 has the "ST A." import mark and the sand caked between the stock and action, with other signs of being at least carried in a sandy environment.

Is that a G letter series? just more evidence that perhaps we were right about these back in the day, that they are ICs. I forgot how many of these were caked in sand inside the stock just as the "ALBs" are commonly found. My old (and very well worn) 8 mill with that import mark also had sand when i got it. If that's a letter series, and LC's is a V letter series with the same import mark, and my /666\ "ALB" has a V letter series trigger.. that seems like pretty compelling evidence that some letter series did make their way over there.. The ST."A" mark seems to be far less common than the typical ST."ALB" mark. Probably just a much smaller batch and were sorted differently.

Indeed it is.

[Justin Hell]

It was a looong time ago I spotted the double cut stock...it very well could have been a laminate, and the double cut nature stood out in memory more so than what the type of stock was?  It easily could have been a bubba too.

It seems as though if the 9ms didn't have them the dual cut wouldn't have anything to do with the transition necessarily, unless China was trying to use up the laminated (they may have had) on hand during the transition, didn't care for them...or didn't actually need them...and they ended up on the 12m series giveaways?  The jump in millions kind of takes the wind out of the sails of the transition theory.  Yet, if blued carrier sporting laminates did get exported to the US as new...it does seem as if they started that way rather than ended up that way via end user refurb.

It's both fun and frustrating to think about.

[Worm]

It's both fun and frustrating to think about.

That pretty much sums it up. Lol

Awesome

My "G"7544 has the "ST A." import mark and the sand caked between the stock and action, with other signs of being at least carried in a sandy environment.

Is that a G letter series? just more evidence that perhaps we were right about these back in the day, that they are ICs. I forgot how many of these were caked in sand inside the stock just as the "ALBs" are commonly found. My old (and very well worn) 8 mill with that import mark also had sand when i got it. If that's a letter series, and LC's is a V letter series with the same import mark, and my /666\ "ALB" has a V letter series trigger.. that seems like pretty compelling evidence that some letter series did make their way over there.. The ST."A" mark seems to be far less common than the typical ST."ALB" mark. Probably just a much smaller batch and were sorted differently.

Indeed it is.

I forgot those were G's. Letter series are awesome, especially IC ones

[Larry D.]

This guy's scope mount make me  do a double take.

[Worm]

This guy's scope mount make me  do a double take.

Lmao yeah, something's not right there.