Author Topic: SKS Forum Seminar  (Read 213 times)

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Offline Matchka

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SKS Forum Seminar
« on: September 14, 2018, 03:14:57 PM »
For openers, I'm relatively new to the forum,  reside in California where the SKS is under no imminent threat of being banned or over regulated  (thank you Mr. Simonov) and currently own at any given time +/- 30 SKS's - which will eventually make their way into the registry.
The question : Apart from VERY helpful sites like this one, the standard big show table talk and the usual range chatter - has there ever been an attempt to put together a true 'seminar' gathering centered on the SKS, related Soviet/Chicom milsurp firearms?
Hell, I could sit through a full day discussion on dating the SKS after reading (more than once) the Forum's excellent new information.
Comments?

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2018, 08:52:23 PM »
Something like that would be rad if the logistics could be figured out (and someone with an FFL to do it free) to organize an event with every possible variant from all nations available for a look see... Great speakers with experience in specific matters. Giant slide shows... Perhaps a lil' wheelin' and dealin'...swapping and such. Parts!
Like an SKS Convention/gun show.

Getting the guns and folks there would be the trick. Somewhere centralized to make road tripping easy, preferably with an indoor range on site or nearby. Even outdoor if weather can be relied upon. Best restoration competitions, best bubba competitions....whose wife looks hottest with an SKS.  rofl

I suppose there could be shooting competitions too...like minute of smallest man?
I would be game, and would skip my 30th HS reunion next year for that. :)
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Online echo1

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2018, 08:53:32 PM »
Hi M,

I'm in Kali too. I don't think a seminar would fly personally, unless there was free food and beer  8). It' would be hard to justify the expense. A webinar maybe but even then it would be tough for the presenter. I think the closest thing would be the annual shoots that are around.

Are you on Calguns also? What part of the Gulag do you reside? PAX
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Online Greasemonkey

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2018, 09:44:40 PM »
Something like that would be rad if the logistics could be figured out (and someone with an FFL to do it free) to organize an event with every possible variant from all nations available for a look see... Great speakers with experience in specific matters. Giant slide shows... Perhaps a lil' wheelin' and dealin'...swapping and such. Parts!
Like an SKS Convention/gun show.

Getting the guns and folks there would be the trick. Somewhere centralized to make road tripping easy, preferably with an indoor range on site or nearby. Even outdoor if weather can be relied upon. Best restoration competitions, best bubba competitions....whose wife looks hottest with an SKS.See who or what causes GM to go full retard, Watch GM get cuffed, stuffed and arrested and wonder who in the flip let the sasquatch out of the hills  rofl

I suppose there could be shooting competitions too...like minute of smallest man?
I would be game, and would skip my 30th HS reunion next year for that. :)

Thats what Justin was really thinking.... rofl2

Yeah.. sounds like a fun time thumb1  SKS seminar and betting on GM to do something.....stupid. So it would have to be a state with legalized gambling.. West byGod Virginia or Nevada come to mind.. I'm partial to West Va...cause I can see it when I look west chuckles1  and I know a few officers there too  :)

Bet RM would enjoy that rofl2
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun take the cannoli.

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Offline Matchka

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2018, 06:09:29 AM »
I'm in the high desert near Palm Springs. Hell, I'd travel as far as Texas to attend a seminar. Maybe a gathering could be combined with a big firearms show or convention... Basic "how-to" must exist somewhere. Lots of U.S. collectors of specific types of firearms, by either brand or function seem to congregate in the 'friendly' states for shoots, information exchanges and sales. As far as I know, the SKS is good to go in all 50 states so practically anywhere west of the Mississippi River or the central U.S. would be great! More thoughts, ideas, people to contact?
ALSO,  Mr. Moderators - would moving this conversation to a more visible thread group help to spread the word? Semper Fi!

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2018, 12:58:55 PM »
I have a few SKSs, and I'm just going to say the following, and it may offend, but, it's my opinion after thinking about this subject :o

.. the main issue, is alot of it is, for lack of better terminology, a best guess. SKS's are not like a Garand, M1903, 1911 or others were there is actual publicized manufacturing records and documentation. These Cold War nations are in alot of ways still stuck in the '60s with information, there is no Freedom of Info Act, it's all tightly secured information, if it even still exists. And they have never shown and probably won't show their arms production figures/numbers or any information related.  So no one really knows the how, what, when, why of Chinas production, or Russia, or NK, or NVA and the EG, or even truthfully, Albania, Romania and Yugoslavia. For many years it was thought Romania didn't make an SKS, then one day, they showed up on our shores in the late 90's/early 2000's.  To find a self proclaimed expert, you are finding someone with a strong "opinion" of how the whole production went down, there will not be any bonified production documentation to back what he says.....again because the information has not even been released. He would be speaking based on speculation and theory of production.

I'm not saying a huge discussion wouldn't be in order, but to have an American collector thats a subject matter expert lead and hold a seminar, to me this wouldn't work so well....the said subject matter expert should be from the plant or if one is lucky, the plants that made them.... not an opinionated American collector. Because is one looking for the subject matter truth or some overly biased American collector who wants to twist some things and pump future prices on their own collection. If you were to sit down and calmly ask 100 SKS "expert/collectors".....you will end up with 2 main production theory's, followed by a smaller subset of the 2 theory's mashed together or worse, and one will end up with a divided room and arguments.  So in the end, you will have a massive chest thumping pissing contest. above.

Realistically, you could have a massive viewing of many types, basic info/knowledge, swapping parts/stories, ect type meeting.... just leave anything production related out of it unless you have documented subject matter experts from their respective nations or include it, if one is feeling froggy and really likes arguments.

Like I said.... about being cuffed and stuffed, going retard... above is what would trigger it. :)
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2018, 03:22:44 PM »
Welcome to the seminar.....   your late. 
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Online Justin Hell

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2018, 08:10:43 PM »
No cuffing and stuffing! I am at my two week anniversary of that...and likely will be in two days again.
I recently had a minor incident dealing with an open wound in my back that needed servicing by the ranger wife when she was off duty at her station...that ended up with a daughter who also became bear bait...got popped for 41 in a 30 w/o a lisense...trying to get female products. If I go dark...I am in the clink.

I wouldn't mind a get together in Texas sometime...I haven't been home in 25 years. I know of a dude with a nice spread who would also have a pretty big collection to lug elsewhere....  think1 Does Texas have a gun show to end all gun shows that it could be coordinated around?
All Bubbas deserve bayonets....figure out a way.
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Offline Matchka

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2018, 10:15:14 AM »
To Greasemonkey's points: Exactly, sure there's a lot of speculative and basically unknown production info out there - and,armchair experts. BUT, it's like giving up the battle before you chamber the first round. Kehaya & Poyer's 'The SKS Carbine', Yooper John and others have devoted beaucoup hours towards gathering and documenting what IS known wrt the SKS's history and production. Combining education, new and established with talks, displays, how-to's, shoots, table sales and anything else in Texas (centrally located) is an event, as a major SKS fan and collector, a couple of years from now(?) that I would definitely attend. Perhaps there are only a handful of the GM that would be interested. I'd be open to opening it up to ALL Simonov types & variants - Bubbas welcome.
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Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2018, 06:32:25 PM »
Kehaya & Poyer's,  Yooper John

∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆.   All got it wrong.     rofl
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Matchka

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2018, 01:10:54 PM »
Undeniably, they got a lot, a hekkuva lot of it right. Regardless, they're making the effort. Please indulge the group on who has comprehensive (and documented), in-print or online bona fide history, production, mil & commercial reference material on the venerable SKS. I still maintain that just like the SKS Files - a group f2f 'conference' or whatever it would be termed, would be invaluable  (and plain enjoyable) opportunity to exchange, learn and show.   :)

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2018, 10:41:32 PM »
Please indulge the group on who has comprehensive (and documented), in-print or online bona fide history, production, mil & commercial reference material on the venerable SKS.

I assume you're being rhetorical and you know the answer to your query for the type of source material you're requesting is that: nobody has this  :))

What LC, RM and GM have gathered here is a lot of primary data. Collection of data from 1000s of examples of the Chinese SKS especially. RM has branched out into the Russians in a big way as well. By primary data I mean looking at actual production examples of the SKS (in person, or in photographs), and gathering serial numbers, and other characteristics. Then they interpreted that combined primary data within the context of the Chinese small arms production industry practices as surmised by examining other small arms with serialized and dated examples. The dating scheme that resulted is the most evidence-based and logical system proposed to date.

The former scheme of: "you can only date /26\ Type 56s", and "add the millions place to 1956" was a fine guess with little data until the early Type 56s flooded in to the US from Albania and showed that it was false. Those Albanian imports were an absolute data boon. Kehaya and Poyer did do a lot of work and their work was great for the time period with the little bit of data they had, again mostly observational without any written source material that I'm aware of. However, to be constructively critical, they did a fair amount of extrapolation and conjecture that turned out to be false. Poyer, at least, has a history of writing small arms monographs quickly, with inevitable shortcomings with regard to accuracy.

It would be great to have original factory documentation and government records from the 1950s to 1980s from the PRC. The motivation for building their own weapons manufacturing capability, the transition to geographically distributing that small arms manufacturing capability, the production numbers and locations of all the different arsenals, etc. A team of Mandarin speakers to translate it for us would also be helpful. Of course, emergence of that type of source material is extremely unlikely to happen with the current government and I think would remain unlikely even if a completely reformed, non-authoritarian, relatively open government were to succeed the current one. Regardless, if the information became available, it would have to be read with a critical eye, mindful of the context of a society where the party line was the only acceptable line (especially in Mao's era) and much of the explanations of decisions and history would likely have lapses in veracity typical of that unquestioning political culture.

I'd say the same applies for Russia, a country seemingly doomed to repeatedly slipping into an authoritarian system regardless of economic or political ideology. Yugoslavia likely lost that data in the chaos and bombing of Belgrade and surrounding areas (like Kragujevac). I suspect the data may also be lost for Albania, Romania, and the former East Germany due to the chaos at the transition from a closed to open society (and subsequent crises in the case of destitute Albania). Certainly no documentation on SKS production or history has surfaced, or been uncovered that I'm aware of. Perhaps it's laying in a forgotten warehouse somewhere and a historian will discover it someday. North Korea is in the same secretive government scenario as China, only 10 times more so  ;)

Regarding your idea for an SKS convention. I like it in the abstract. It's in the implementation where it becomes potentially logistically difficult and expensive. I think major gun shows are your best bet for something close to implementing this idea, at a small scale perhaps. I know there are German firearms collectors that have semi-formal meetings at the hotel room level at Show of Shows. Something like that may be practical. To have a full convention with rented meeting space etc. devoted to a relatively narrow subject like the SKS, or even multiple communist bloc weapons, that's a completely different story that would take a team of dedicated volunteers to finance and organize.

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2018, 12:17:44 AM »
It would be great to have original factory documentation and government records from the 1950s to 1980s from the PRC. The motivation for building their own weapons manufacturing capability, the transition to geographically distributing that small arms manufacturing capability, the production numbers and locations of all the different arsenals, etc. A team of Mandarin speakers to translate it for us would also be helpful. Of course, emergence of that type of source material is extremely unlikely to happen with the current government and I think would remain unlikely even if a completely reformed, non-authoritarian, relatively open government were to succeed the current one. Regardless, if the information became available, it would have to be read with a critical eye, mindful of the context of a society where the party line was the only acceptable line (especially in Mao's era) and much of the explanations of decisions and history would likely have lapses in veracity typical of that unquestioning political culture.

I'd say the same applies for Russia, a country seemingly doomed to repeatedly slipping into an authoritarian system regardless of economic or political ideology. Yugoslavia likely lost that data in the chaos and bombing of Belgrade and surrounding areas (like Kragujevac). I suspect the data may also be lost for Albania, Romania, and the former East Germany due to the chaos at the transition from a closed to open society (and subsequent crises in the case of destitute Albania). Certainly no documentation on SKS production or history has surfaced, or been uncovered that I'm aware of. Perhaps it's laying in a forgotten warehouse somewhere and a historian will discover it someday. North Korea is in the same secretive government scenario as China, only 10 times more so  ;)


I think some of the reasoning behind why possibly no production records or source material exist or have been found.. look at the Cold War leadership from the 1950s to 1980s.
For instance.....
Russia, you had Stalin to start out with.. a ruthless hardcore leader who would purge his own military ranks, two short term leaders followed, then Khrushchev.....Cuban missile crisis ring a bell...then there is Brezhnev..

In Albania you had Enver Hoxha.... this dude had secret police who wiped people, families and towns out of existence, a Stalin fanatic and follower till one or the other started a pissing match, then he snuggled up with Mao, Hoxha personally drove and pounded that little nation into the ground.

China had Mao.... No way anyone really knows all what he did....he supported North Korea, the NVA, killed who knows how many in the name of Communism.

North Korea.. they need no explanation!

In Romania you have the original Commie leader Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej who wasn't too bad, maybe he died before he got wound up, but he was followed by Nicolae Ceaușescu....this is where Romania went south, he was a communist wack job who again, killed his own people, in the many of thousands to support their cause..... soldiers finally killed him and his wife.....then in a weird twist, Romania did away with capital punishment.

Then in Yugoslavia you had Josip Broz Tito, yet another fanatical communist...he didn't really get along with Russia.. he really was not quite as bad as some of the above leaders, he would deal with the US and other nations in some ways. When he finally died, the nation of Yugoslavia imploded and blew into little pieces.

I would imagine many of those nations have tried to erase that past and move on, it would be much like trying to find Nazi memorabilia in Germany, it just ain't gonna happen.. if there are records of any production...
Russia to me would be a likely candidate, but like anything, why keep records for almost 70 year old surplus stuff you no longer even have or would even share.. what is the benefit??

The rest of those nations were ruled by what amounts to a...... psychotic, genocidal, serial killer with military access, I would imagine most all documents and any records were possibly destroyed to prevent in depth investigations and charges later down the road....in today's world the truth hurts.. especially economically.

So...that leaves people who were there, hands on, on the production floor, who are now in their prime old golden years with foggy, scared memories of atrocities, horrors and days gone by... The odds of them ever speaking....very slim.
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline Matchka

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2018, 04:09:05 AM »
I'm inclined to agree that a full-blown 'seminar' (probably not the best word choice) given the logistics and financial aspects, would be near impossible. Nevertheless, a gathering at a centrally located show of "enthusiasts" isn't out of the realm of practicality. Pulling together known, verified facts - from the various country-specific open source production records (setting aside the speculatives) could be a start. Simonov started with an idea; perhaps the trace clues on the development of the AK-47 and it's galaxy of production spin-offs could us point to what (I'd imagine) would be essentially the same, albeit several years later, sources for the SKS's records, fabricators and exporters. NORINCO, Interarms, CAI, and so on might/might be the first step towards peeling the onion.

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2018, 02:15:52 PM »
I'm inclined to agree that a full-blown 'seminar' (probably not the best word choice) given the logistics and financial aspects, would be near impossible. Nevertheless, a gathering at a centrally located show of "enthusiasts" isn't out of the realm of practicality. Pulling together known, verified facts - from the various country-specific open source production records (setting aside the speculatives) could be a start.

Yes, it would be a hoot.. getting verifiable facts on paper would be the difficult part.

Simonov started with an idea; perhaps the trace clues on the development of the AK-47 and it's galaxy of production spin-offs could us point to what (I'd imagine) would be essentially the same, albeit several years later, sources for the SKS's records, fabricators and exporters. NORINCO, Interarms, CAI, and so on might/might be the first step towards peeling the onion.

Therein lies another issue..getting information from an importer or exporter. That information is kept, at best, under a close guarded, absolute need to know basis. Short of a court ordered subpoena, no normal person outside of the importer/exporter elite/BATFE would be privy to that information. Most of the dozen or more US importers that existed during the SKS importation heyday are since long gone......their records are locked away in an undisclosed massive dusty BATFE warehouse somewhere. And to add to it, one is looking for import records from 30-40 yrs ago, who is to say if they even exist or met a shredder or incinerator, the BATFE dictates how long we have to hold records, they say nothing about how long they have to hold their own records...
The docks where the containers come a shore, they might have recoded of the number of conex boxes hitting the shores....but, you will have to have some stroke or subpoena to get to the information....again.... if it still exists.

OK....... now someone will say, one could track down the former import owners and see what info, if any they still have, I did try to track down the owner of C&A/DIG importer in Va Beach, they imported alot of Chinese stuff, the owner passed away due to heart issues about 15ish years ago. Some of the no longer existent US importers were actually run by Chinese nationals, who's strings were pulled by China. Most have since returned to China, there some were convicted of firearms crimes, importing automatics and such, during that peak importation time. With the nations who exported, it's the same game... no one or at least no normal Joe Smo will get the exportation records from Norinco or PolyTech, that information, if it still exists is held by Chinese government, because in the end, that's who controls what leaves that nation.
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline Matchka

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2018, 01:32:13 PM »
Greasemonkey, wrt to the BATF being the gatekeeper/source wrt SKS import records. My background knowledge on all SKS lore is very limited, at best.
Could you or other member(s) point me to a comprehensive list of at least the 'major' U.S. SKS importers, complete with owner's names, last/best address, telnos, DBA's, from/to operating dates? If I could gather a reasonable amount of information, I'd be willing to file a FOIA request with the BATF on everything they've archived on SKS's imported into the United States.

Online Greasemonkey

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Re: SKS Forum Seminar
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2018, 01:42:02 PM »
We dabbled with some, quite in depth trying to get info, we got some stuff...but most of it's pre-internet info and not digital..this is just one list. https://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=2111.0

Wish you the best of luck.. I don't think a FOIA will get info released, but hey, good luck in your venture.

If anything, one might find out who imported what.....but, it really doesn't get us any closer to the mass of production information from abroad or any of the factory specific information that is highly sought after. The Information Act doesn't apply to those nation's. And like I said before, being 30-40 years ago, what are the odds importers even have records or remember.

Also, as I said.... Most importers no longer exist with the exception of their stamps on the rifles, a majority have gone out of business and vanished over the years. Most files, information and licenses are not digitized. I was getting some info from real old digitized yellow page phone books.

I would suggest studying the, as you call, the SKS lore, along with everything else, a few before us tried, we tried to unravel the twisted web of importer/exporters and other things, and we got some tidbits.. but, it is a very time consuming rabbit hole and full of stone walls and dead ends.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 07:08:47 PM by Greasemonkey »
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem