Traits of Middle East/IC SKS45's

[Boris Badinov]

Wasn't there an info thread somewhere on this forum about  traits of Israeli Capture and MidEast SKS45's?

Other than modified bayo slots, are there any differences from their Chinese counterparts from Israel / Middle East?

Also, do the IC/ME SKS45's command a higher premium?

Thanks.

B.Badinov

[Loose}{Cannon]

All the IC information is contained within the same thread.  https://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=1886.0

[Boris Badinov]

Thanks.

[Boris Badinov]

Any ideas about current, fair market value for an ic/me 45?

[running-man]

I've never seen a premium for them.  In fact, they tend to be in well used shape and bubba thinks they are prime candidates for 'improving' with various add-ons and aftermarket stuff - irregardless of their status as Russian guns (though less so nowadays with the crazy prices).  The typical result was that I'd see various Russian parts floating around eBay that three months prior I knew belonged to an IC gun that sold cheap via GB. 

I gave up fretting about the bad things that people do to their firearms long ago... 

[Loose}{Cannon]

About the only three factors to identify an IC 45 are, Arabic stock numbers, Correct early Century import mark on the barrel, and perhaps wear/condition.

I would wanna see the Arabic stock numbers for certain as the other two are variables.

[Boris Badinov]

There are currently two Soviet IC/ME sks45's on gonebroker: one is an all-matching 1957 carbine in a dark, reddish, laminate stock with a counter bore and the other (also all matching) 1953 [\] in a hardwood stock also with a dark, red stain. Neither has a visible stock serial number, and the 1953 appears to have large font 5's on the receiver and bolt...just like the large number 6 on martin08's gun. Both have arabic stock numbers (51 and 4) and remnants of black paint on some of the metal.

Both look very well traveled.

Neither appear to have import stamps.

From the pics, they look to be genuine IC guns.

[Boris Badinov]

https://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=4108.msg45919#new

[firstchoice]

Wasn't sure where to post this...

https://www.icollector.com/SIMINOV-MODEL-SKS-CALIBER-7-62-X-39_i32500676

This is a Canadian auction that's already been sold. It was for a Russian SKS45 with the laminated stock/blued bolt carrier/Arabic stock numbers. Wasn't sure if anyone is keeping track of SN's for these?













firstchoice

[Worm]

Thank you very much for that.

A Russian with the blued carrier / lammy combo..

I still lean towards these being middle east refurbs. Now I'm really leaning towards it.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Nah, looks like cold blue on the carrier and the Russian ICs dont have a blued carrier to begin with.  Laminated stock is normal for a russian also, so its not like thats any indication.

[Worm]

Unnumbered stock, and that's not cold blue. That looks identical to multiple IC examples.


They're refurbs.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Unnumbered stock, and that's not cold blue. That looks identical to multiple IC examples.


They're refurbs.

Looks like cold blue to me with the (in the white) area under the handle.  Of, course....  how do we know its not a Chinese carrier?

[Loose}{Cannon]

They're refurbs.

No offence worm, but you/we need more data.

that's not cold blue

Perhaps not, but it could also be Chinese. 

[Worm]

Refurbs. Half of them even have welded/filed bolts, yet none with the white carriers that I know of have been found with them.

Says the bolt matches the receiver. 4/5 times online they're confusing the bolt for the carrier.

Refinished lammy stock w/ arabic markings - check. Blued carrier - check. That's the combo. The bluing is identical to every other that's black. (Dark purple is the other)

The guns are often fully reblued & even covering old pitting on the receiver. The Norinco marked ones were debunked with Carbine's "carbine" that made the trip. Martin08's was in nice condition but so are other reblued ones without Norinco. Rebluing has the tendency to make a rifle look new.

No one orders SKSs with extra blueing & a side of lammy. This ain't Burger King.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Says the bolt matches the receiver. 4/5 times online they're confusing the bolt for the carrier.

I hear ya, but I know you wouldn't base your entire theory on ONE carrier that you haven't even been able to confirm matches the receiver.   

Refinished lammy stock w/ arabic markings - check.

Heck , we know they refinished stocks and the shellac looks like a 4 year old did it....  over the hardware with the ol brush and all.  Nobody I know of is questioning whether or not they "refurbed" the rifles to some extent.  My argument is that we KNOW their process was rather crude to say the least. The painting of gastubes, butplates etc are also evidence of this and also indicates they didnt reblue stuff... they painted.  In my opinion, the idea that the PLO at this time in history had the ability to make an sks look like new (and I mean NEW NEW) with the above mentioned is highly unlikely.  It reminds me of the NVA conundrum where we were forced to believe the NVA actually produced the sks.

Remember this?

Blued carrier - check. That's the combo. The bluing is identical to every other that's black. (Dark purple is the other)

Thats fine, Ill give you the benefit of the doubt that its blued.  How do you know it matches and how do you know who blued it? 

The Norinco marked ones were debunked with Carbine's "carbine" that made the trip. Martin08's was in nice condition but so are other reblued ones without Norinco

I dont think Carbines rifle 'debunks' anything Worm...  We know the progression of CAI import stamps in this time frame and his rifle may simply have been stamped at the very beginning of the application and addition of 'norinco' to their stamp.  We don't even know if the 'norinco' portion was added at the same time as the rest of the stamp.

No one orders SKSs with extra blueing & a side of lammy.

I dunno Worm, remember I hit the research on these pretty hard right along with you and agree on 99% of the findings.  I believe some were aided (PLO), and some may have been purchased (Syria), and they all became mixed up eventually in the sandbox-blender.  I think when money talks, and someone with a metric Crapton of surplus to unload, you can pretty well get what you want.  Have you considered the possibility that CHINA refurbed the blued bolt laminated variation? Does China have the ability to refurbish their own sheet and give the customer what they want..... just look at the US market and all the commercial guns and tell me it isnt like Burger King.   



Are we to believe the PLO turned this one into a para?  https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?280518-Egyptian-Contract-SKS-Revisited

Sgt Frank Rock

Here's a '67 /26\ Paratrooper sporting a Chinese Egyptian contract stock that was recut for a spike bayonet

[Greasemonkey]

I ain't no expert on these.. but I wonder if someone didn't throw a Russian stock on a para from the serial range. Shame they didn't show the import stamp on it. And since it's a laminate stock, shouldn't the bolt be blued and shellac slopped all over it..  I see one outstanding feature, it's laminate and nothing else definitive, based off the IC information thread.  It's happened, someone does a one off.... M08 did a Polish based on a Russian.

But what do I know.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Oh, I agree.  I would only add that ICs can and WILL have any combination of hardwood/laminate/blued BC/white BC so the BC isnt 'supposed' to be either. In addition, some have received the sloppy shellac, some have not. 

Its a case in-point.

[Worm]

This is pretty much where I'm going to leave this dead horse..

First, that 11 mill.. I see what was probably just a bubba job. I milled out a laminate for a spiker, you milled out a laminate for a spiker.. people do those things. I've seen a fair share of 11 mills that are non import marked and none of them make it into my IC photo folder for a reason; none have given me any strong inclination that they are ICs. If it had a blued carrier, the correct CAI mark, etc, I'd consider otherwise. None have thus far. No import mark can mean IC Canadian, non-IC Canadian, or bringback. It's not like the correct CAI mark which has exhibited nothing but ICs as far as we know.

Secondly, please ponder this; You believe China configured these SKSs this way for Syria. Why in the world would China not just give Syria blade bayo'd SKSs and skip milling out 12 mills for their spikes..? To me, the milled bayo groove for the spikes screams lack of specific resources.

Next. Carbine's gun is Norinco marked. Martin08's gun is Norinco marked. Carbine's gun is Arabic marked. But.. Martin's didn't make the trip, why? Because it's in good condition? Again, the blued carrier guns often also exhibit signs of a full barreled receiver reblue.. The great majority of blued carrier guns lack the obvious carry wear that the great majority of white carrier guns have. Yes, some white carrier guns are less worn or on par condition-wise with some blued carrier guns, but that is the exception to the rule. Most blued carrier guns lack the Norinco mark, & yet many of them look in as good of shape as Martin's Norinco marked blued carrier example. Yes, some have light wear, but I have no reason to believe some of these wouldn't have been used post-reblue.

We have no evidence of Syria placing an order.. & no explanation as to why they ever would.. yet you say I need more data for my theory..The evidence that these are refurbs (IMO) is right there;

-Reblues, sometimes even over pitting showing obvious prior use (And, by the way, I'm not the only person to claim they have full barreled receiver reblues. Multiple others have stated this about their examples). Why would China reblue the receivers and barrels of unissued guns?

-Restocked.

-Overall, they look to be in much better shape than the white carrier guns (Not always, but generally). If they went to the same environment at the same time, we'd see consistent wear & tear between the two types. I have yet to find a beat to hell looking blued carrier gun as I have seen on multiple examples of white carrier guns. NOT to say they don't exist, because I'm sure they do, but obviously not in the same numbers as the white carrier examples.

Average blued carrier guns:

















Average white carrier guns:











(Probably the best condition white carrier example):



Wish I still had pics of the abused to hell white carrier, arabic marked 9 mill of M08's,, but Photobucket decided to shoot itself in the nads.

Now, do I believe Syria could have been the one to reblue? Sure.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Why in the world would China not just give Syria blade bayo'd SKSs and skip milling out 12 mills for their spikes..?

Shown above would be the configuration as they left China.  First batch 9m guns using OS russian Laminates.  Second 12m guns also using the same stocks.  The stocks take 20 seconds to modify for the spike configuration. I dont see why China would go backwards to a blade in 1967 when all you have to do is mod the stock.  THEN, you can also bet your bottom dollar if a stock originating from a 9m was later fitted to a 12m in the ME it was done there also. So you have 12m rifles sent with dual cuts, and the 9m stocks can dual cut in the ME.  This is why we have 9m examples with no second cut.   

Carbine's gun is Norinco marked. Martin08's gun is Norinco marked. Carbine's gun is Arabic marked.

I hate to say it, but have you ever considered Carbines rifle was like martins when it came here and someone found out what it was and added the white painted Arabic numbers?    Personally I find it interesting that EVERY norinco marked rifle is in new condition minus Carbines. What are the odds that all these guns came in and the new ones were for some reason separated from the well used examples specifically to mark them norinco?  I would say not likely at all....

you say I need more data for my theory

Honestly Worm, Im not trying to bust anyones balls, but the theory presented is in fact yours and you have 1 norinco marked rifle with arabic stock numbers, and 1 Russian with an unknown origin blued carrier.  Perhaps your right, and I only hope you find more evidence to support the theory.

Reblues, sometimes even over pitting showing obvious prior use (And, by the way, I'm not the only person to claim they have full barreled receiver reblues. Multiple others have stated this about their examples)

Totally believe you, can you show us?   Also, is it not possible the guns in question were not refurbished by China prior to going the the ME?


Looks at the stamps prior......   They had no problem stating NORINCO where applicable i.e imported from China PRIOR to the 'A' and 'ALB' version in question.


[/li]
[li]CAI #1, Century International Arms out of Saint Albans, Vermont:

NORINCO SKS
7.62 China
CAI ST A VT
Type: Ink Marking
Location: Left Rear Receiver Cover
Notes:  I'm calling this one the first CAI stamp out there.  Early St. Albans etching located on the rear left of the receiver cover.  Obviously a simple receiver cover swap makes this entire import stamp go away.  BATF certainly had issues with this type of marking, due to it not being on the barreled receiver as well as the very minimal depth of this type of etching. (Photo courtesy of padams8888.)


[/li]
[li]CAI #2, Century International Arms out of Saint Albans, Vermont:

NORINCO SKS
7.62 CHINA
CAI ST A VT
Type: Ink Marking
Location: Left Front Receiver Cover
Notes: Almost identical to CAI #1, only a slightly noticeable change to all caps in the CHINA text.



Then, out of the blue we have the ELIMINATION of the norinco text. 



[/li]
[li]CAI #3, Century International Arms out of Saint Albans, Vermont:

CAI ST.A. VT
SKS 7.62 CHINA
Type: Stamp
Location: Bottom of Barrel between FSB and gas block.
Notes: I think this one is the next logical one to place in the CAI progression as the St. A. is still prevalent, there is no Norinco marking, and the location is on the barrel.

[/li]
[li]CAI #4, Century International Arms out of Saint Albans, Vermont:

CAI ST ALB VT
SKS 7.62X39 CHINA
Type: Stamp
Location: Right Front Receiver Cover
Notes:  Slightly more information (X39) added beyond the CAI #3 stamp.

[/li]
[li]CAI #5, Century International Arms out of Saint Albans, Vermont:

C.A.I. ST. ALB. VT
SKS 7.62X39 CHINA
Type: Stamp
Location: Right Front Receiver
Notes: Almost identical to CAI #4, but distinctly different with the punctuation.

[/li]
[li]CAI #6, Century International Arms out of Saint Albans, Vermont:

SKS 7.62X39 CHINA     C.A.I.ST.ALB. VT.
Type: Stamp
Location: Left Rear Receiver
Notes:



So, why in the height of NOT using the norinco designation did they break out a separate stamp as an addition to the normal text?

Finally, We know from recent imports from Albania that chinese rifles NOT imported from China do NOT get the Norinco designation....... why would that be? 



[/li]
[li]CAI #11, Century International Arms out of Georgia, Vermont:

C.A.I. GEORGIA VT.
CHINA SKS TYPE 56 7.62 x 39
Type: Pin Punch
Location: Right Barrel between FSB and gas block
Notes: This is the Sino-Banian stamp for the six digit, 2 million, and 3 million /26\ guns imported in late 2012.