Author Topic: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet  (Read 32585 times)

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Offline jstin2

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2017, 08:54:47 AM »
I feel that I have been upfront about this rifle. Questions answered, dozens of pictures posted  for all to see. But as soon as Westrifle was mentioned, it was more about them and less about knowing more about this rifle.  Judge this rifle and if there are questionable items, post it.

Offline newchi

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2017, 09:43:31 AM »
To me it looks like a perfectly average refurbed sks you would find in any cabellas/wholesale/CT up here, other than the spike bayonet of course.
BUT, i also got fooled into buying 'supergrade' sks's so my opinion isnt worth much  :))

Offline running-man

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2017, 12:42:29 PM »
jstin, I'm not sure what you're looking for here.  There is no SKS expert in the world that will be able to tell you with 100% certainty if your gun is an as-built transitional '50, a '49 which was refurbished by the Russians, or a gun that has been modded by Westrifle to bring in a higher retail value by swapping the stock ferrule and bayonet.   It simply can't be done, I don't care how good the SKS expert is.  Everyone will have opinions and different features and pieces of data will hold different weight for different people to come to different conclusions.  The fact that it is a Westrifle gun and you did pay a premium for it adds another layer to the equation as we now not only have to worry about what the Russians may or may not have done, but we have to look at what may or may not have done by the retailer to help 'improve' the rifle for sale.  It's unfortunate, but as you can see from the photos I've posted, there are demonstrable instances of them selling Russian SKSs with markings that are not original to the guns.

Boris has talked about font on the receiver and receiver cover being matching and I think I agree with him.  The rest of the stamped parts look a little different than these two, but I would say we can't even identify the reason as to why that is.  Was the receiver and receiver cover both scrubbed and restamped?  Are the piece parts all scrubbed and restamped?  Are the receiver/receiver cover and piece parts all original yet stamped with a different stamp set?  Are the stamps all the same, yet struck at different angles/by different technicians?

Could there be a run of EM prefixed '49s and a separate run of EM prefixed '50s?  Absolutely.  It would be the first occurrence of consecutive year prefixes I've ever encountered in the '49 to '55 timeframe though.  By '56 to '58 and in the Izhevsk guns, reuse of prefixes from year to year is noted, but in the early years there seems to always be at least a one year gap between reuse of prefixes (i.e. prefix "AB" is seen in '49, '51, and '54, but not '50, '52, '53, or '55).  Granted my data set is only 1467 rifles with 1097 of those being as-issued or positively ID'd using comparison to as-issued guns, but I would have thought I'd see at least one occurrence of this before now. 

Could it be that the EM numbers transitioned from '49 to '50 and this is what we are seeing?  Sure!  The bothersome aspect of this one is that your EM717 is lower than all other known EMs and the 4 other EMs (EM972, EM1191, EM1546, and EM1818) all have '49 covers while EM923 also has a '50 cover.  Maybe they built these in reverse order?  Maybe they found a stash of pre-marked '49 covers that they used up sometime after the EM1000 rifle build? 

Lots of conjecture, but not much to back any concrete conclusion up I'm afraid...
      

Online Boris Badinov

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2017, 01:24:53 PM »
I feel that I have been upfront about this rifle. Questions answered, dozens of pictures posted  for all to see. But as soon as Westrifle was mentioned, it was more about them and less about knowing more about this rifle.  Judge this rifle and if there are questionable items, post it.

I don't think anyone here is trying to disparage you or the rifle because of the Westrifle connection. Were it a bladed rifle from 1950 onward, the discussion would have never gotten this far.

But, if determination of age and/or possible provenance are at heart of the discussion surrounding this rifle, than the Westrifle connection becomes crucial to making (or not being able to make) a determination.

It actually helps to let the discussion remain open. In my opinion it's crucial that the stamps on the the receiver and cover are Soviet-made ( and seemingly identical). Westrifle has a reputation of humping guns-- so it's important for the discussion to consider various aspects of the rifle to get a better idea of whether or not your rifle made it through Westrifle variously modified or relatively unscathed. TBH, I'm of the opinion that very little (if anything) was done to this rifle by Westrifle (though some of the other metal stamps could be reasonably questioned).

Might they have scrubbed some serials an then re-stamped  to make a matching rifle? Yes, possibly As I just noted, some of the other metal stamps are modestly questionable (imo). But the receiver and cover serials are (beating a dead horse) still the crucial serial stamps. And I just don't see any indication that they have been altered in any way by Westrifle. Going further, I don't think they were altered by the Soviets either. To me they are far and away the most convincing traits for date determination on this rifle. But they are not 100% date-determining.

I believe there is a substantial argument to be made that it's a 1950 gun with a cruciform bayonet. And, of course others will disagree, but I think the argument in favor of 1950 is more convincing than the argument in favor of a 1949 gun with an replacement cover.

But the Westrifle connection can't be ignored-- just like Mitchell's Mausers here in the US.

More than likely this rifle will never provide definitive proof regarding the actual date of manufacture. And that's not because of the Westrifle connection. If we could omit the questionable westrfile connection, we would still be left with a nearly 70 year old gun that has gone through at least one fairly heavy refurbishment process.

The best evidence for an unaltered/as-issued (or even a lite-lite-refurb), 1950, cruciformed, SKS45 will be exactly that. Given the uninterrupted stream of Soviet SKS imports to Canada over the past few decades, my educated guess (whatever that means) is that the best chance of finding such an example would be in CANADA.

So, my sks addicts to the north, keep yer eyes peeled. Eh?

In the end you've got a unique piece that's touched on a relatively obscure corner of SKS history and (dare I say) lore.

Nothing wrong with that. I'd gladly pay 2-3 times what you paid in Canada to own such a specimen in the US...westrifle or not.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 01:29:25 PM by Boris Badinov »

Offline jstin2

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2017, 02:18:20 PM »
My last post got me the results I was hopping for. Thanks, Running-Man and Boris. I know that this rifle cannot be authenticated as no records exist and there are several iffy factors involved. It gets people thinking and pondering. If another 50 with EM shows up, it would help with this one. I would still appreciate other members opinions. Another thing that I would like to mention. Westrifle had 10 - 49 SKSs listed for $400.00. The last one was titled 1950(same price as others). My opinion only, is that they bought a crate of 49's and this one got slipped in. The premium 49's sell for $600.00.

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2017, 03:11:05 PM »
Now.... would this same rifle caused this much controversy had this Westrifle had just came out, been straight out up front and said, "we built these out of all Russian imported '49-early '50 parts kits" and asked 400 bucks each. While the true imported '49's sell for 600. Same thing happens here, a few years ago a lot of Yugo M59's were toted, advertised and sold that were nothing more than heavily modified M59/66 rifles. There was really no mention by the sellers as to what it was, until the collecting community called out the retailers on their description.

On parts kits... how many Russian SKSs remain over seas to be imported? They already have been imported for years, both in the US and Canada, plus what was sent to supply other Communist nations with weapons. There was only so many rifles produced in a fairly limited time span.. the numbers remaining I'm sure are dwindling, they could be scraping the bottom of the surplus piles. Spare parts, over runs, incomplete rifles being assembled and completed is always a possibility to supply the demand and make the most profit off of what remains.

What I see and read, there are 2 roads of possibility.. it's a Westrifle, Mitchells, Gibbs, Santa Fe, Century Arms style importer parts kit rebuild/restamp, or it's truly a legit piece of Russian built hardware. Also based on what I have seen and read.. I simply see an aberration that has no concrete explanation one way or the other, a no proof one off......To me, a determining factor would be if other oddities, strange remixes that go against the norm slowly show up in mass, or if they sell out of all these rifles, and this is the only documented one in Canada.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 03:15:07 PM by Greasemonkey »
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun take the cannoli.

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Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2017, 05:43:49 PM »
My last post got me the results I was hopping for. Thanks, Running-Man and Boris. I know that this rifle cannot be authenticated as no records exist and there are several iffy factors involved. It gets people thinking and pondering. If another 50 with EM shows up, it would help with this one. I would still appreciate other members opinions. Another thing that I would like to mention. Westrifle had 10 - 49 SKSs listed for $400.00. The last one was titled 1950(same price as others). My opinion only, is that they bought a crate of 49's and this one got slipped in. The premium 49's sell for $600.00.

Then it does not sound to me like there was a great price gain to be made by humping anything. 


Quote
I believe there is a substantial argument to be made that it's a 1950 gun with a cruciform bayonet. And, of course others will disagree, but I think the argument in favor of 1950 is more convincing than the argument in favor of a 1949 gun with an replacement cover.

I would tend towards the latter. We literally have zero evidence of an as-issued 50 with a spike bayo, and Im sure we can find 49s with replacement covers.   Just my .02
      
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Offline carls sks

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2017, 06:56:37 PM »
don't even know what Westrifle is. got to get out more.  pullhair1
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Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2017, 07:06:17 PM »
don't even know what Westrifle is. got to get out more.  pullhair1

Pretty sure its a distributor in canada.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2017, 09:02:23 PM »
don't even know what Westrifle is. got to get out more.  pullhair1

Like LC said. More often discussed on the "Canadian Gun Nutz" forum but a retailer that is inaccessible to us...US  ;)  :)

http://westrifle.com/wrstore/

Offline running-man

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2017, 09:33:26 PM »

Like LC said. More often discussed on the "Canadian Gun Nutz" forum but a retailer that is inaccessible to us...US  ;)  :)

http://westrifle.com/wrstore/
More than that Jon. They are official sponsors of that forum. Any posts that show a sponsor in a less then flattering light are quickly dealt with and oftentimes the offending poster is reprimanded.  whip))

I guess that's what happens when forums are at the mercy of their sponsors.
      

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2017, 09:34:18 PM »
Oh geez
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline jstin2

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2017, 11:47:54 PM »
I joined Canadian Gun Nutz in June 2017. It was to view equipment exchange. Today when I found out about the forum, I posted my 50 SKS and explained questions that have been asked ( 1950-spike-westrifle). I posted pictures and asked if anyone had a 50 with spike or EM serial number to post it. Will let you know results.

Offline CARBINE

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2017, 01:11:58 AM »
Like everyone knows and has said here westrifle has done some shady stuff so the authenticity is up for grabs, but let's look at the facts it looks like a 49 quacks like a 49 but there is little known about the transition of the early 49-50 guns so it will possibly never be known the true history of this gun....but either way it's a very interesting gun and worth the investment.
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Offline jstin2

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2017, 10:40:34 PM »
I have posted this carbine on Canadian Gun Nutz. I was wondering if any members knew about overseas SKS forums that could help with identifying this carbine?

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2017, 10:50:02 PM »
May have to settle for 'overlakes' info, because I don't think russians can tell much more about this rifle then whats been stated. 
      
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Offline jstin2

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2017, 06:09:19 AM »
What I should have said was that SKSs were exported to several other counties and I wonder if there are forums in those countries.

Offline jstin2

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2017, 06:50:27 AM »
I mean data bases not forums.

Offline running-man

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2017, 03:26:25 PM »
NoytaCCCP/Kurgan has a datsbase in Canada. His database is user submittted w/o photo proof for a majority of entries and I believe he has had some pretty bad issues with data quality to the point of shutting down the survey multiple times.  He has not updated anything in several years.  Some guys at guns.ru (or popgun or various other named Russian sites... they all have the same forum) had a prefix only list going for SKS45s but that did not go very far I'm afraid.

Apart from those two (and mine of course), I know of no other SKS45 databases that exist out there.  If there is a particular subset of guns someone is interested in, I can usually pull and post that portion pretty easily and can back each entry up with at least a receiver S/N photo if not many photos of the gun's features. 

I think as you search you'll find a surprising lack of information on this topic out there. It's one of the main reasons this board even exists; to have the conversation on a board where pet ideas by the 'been there done that' crowd are not treated as gospel and new ideas and noob owners are belittled like you see on sksboards.
      

Offline jstin2

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2017, 05:00:24 PM »
Thanks for the information. I guess that I will not know for sure about this rifle, unless someone notes his in one of the forums and produces pictures. Even then it still could be questionable. If you want and have a secure site where I could send information pertaining to S/Ns of my guns, I could take pictures of S/Ns and date and send you the webpage for immb. This can be added to your data base.