Author Topic: Remote ammo storage  (Read 4401 times)

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Offline Dannyboy53

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Remote ammo storage
« on: August 29, 2016, 02:34:30 PM »
Mary and I are constantly thinking of SHTF scenarios and what to do to be prepared. Aside from food, medicinal items, clothing, etc., ammo is of course on our list. I have never stored ammo in the wild and back in February decided to try it after researching much about it on the internet. Here is one of the suggestions we went with, very simple and inexpensive. We used GI issue ammo cans in very good condition with intact seals on the lids along with 5 gallon buckets with locking lids we got at Lowes.  We were liberal in our use of desiccant packs (made by running-man's neighbor at the local plant in New Mexico!). Tell him thanks running-man, they do a great job!

I have not had much faith in this method of storage in Florida where heat & humidity is the prime enemy of metallic objects. We sealed some ammo (with desiccants) in a few GI ammo cans and put them in the 5 gallon buckets with desiccants in the buckets. We then buried them on 16 February of this year. Being paranoid I began to stress about digging them up and checking them, afraid of what I might find. The wife all the time saying "leave them alone"!

I didn't listen to her, dug them up today and found.....zero evidence of any moisture. She didn't say "I told you so" just simply and graciously asked if I felt better! It has been 6 months since we buried our stash and I am impressed, I no longer fear using this method with other items in various locations.







I attribute this in large part to these packets:




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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2016, 11:49:09 PM »
Great read Danny. Thats awesome ! How deep did you bury the buckets looks like about 3 ft or more ? Did you count the rainy days ? Just curious.  Now maybe get you a little P64 to stick in there  :) 
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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2016, 08:27:49 AM »
I do keep all mine in ammo cans with the desiccants. all of mine is within easy loading into vehicles if I got to dee-dee.  thumb1
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Offline Dannyboy53

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2016, 09:12:45 AM »
Thanks Direct Connection! We buried them about two feet deep which puts about ten inches of dirt on top of the buckets. I didn't want to go too deep so they could be retrieved quickly if it became necessary. And the weather app on my desktop tells me we got 17" of rain during that time period.

Mid summer I read an article suggesting one should bury buckets upside down as this might help prevent water from seeping into the buckets. This is the primary reason I got to worrying and dug ours up! I didn't take into account however that Florida soil (if it can be called soil!) is sandy for a long way down so water will drop away quickly from buried buckets to the water table in the Limerock.


I do keep all mine in ammo cans with the desiccants. all of mine is within easy loading into vehicles if I got to dee-dee.  thumb1

We still have one case of X39mm in it's original container but the rest (7.62x39mm) are packed in ammo cans also carl sks. We recently bought some plastic ammo cans from Harbor Freight that resemble GI cans and seal up the same way. They can be stacked also, not bad for $5  :) They seem durable, but then we aren't throwing them from aircraft or off of speeding vehicles either.




Offline Indy762

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2016, 11:00:03 AM »
Do the desiccant packs need replaced at regular intervals?

Offline Dannyboy53

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2016, 02:05:28 PM »
Indy the manufacturer of the packs I use (Süd-Chemie Inc Performance Packaging  Belen, New Mexico) recommends they be reactivated by heating at 245° for 16 hrs. Any temperatures hotter than 245° will damage the packs. They can be reactivated several times but I don't know the interval...sorry!

Offline Power Surge

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2016, 10:34:34 PM »
Danny, another thing you can try is large size ziplock bags, or using those vacuum bags :)

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2016, 10:54:37 PM »
I have heard about recharging or expelling the moisture contained in the desiccants my heating also, but Im not sure how...  Oven? 

I know stale chips simply have moisture and you can make them like new in the oven by drawing out the moisture.    :)
      
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Offline armedhippie

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2016, 12:10:44 AM »
Good stuff Danny thumb1

Reminds me of something that may or may not be done out in the back woods. On a lil bigger scale, Take an old, top open chest freezer, make sure the drain plug is sealed, Use heavy duty tractor or marine grease on the hinges. Takes a big frigging hole but people never ask many questions around here ifin ya out digging  ;) Holds a ton and long enough for bout whatever you want, depending on the size. When done filling 'er up caulk around the seal or melted wax and bingo...insta bunker. Plant some maters on top if ya want even  :))

At least ya'know...that's what I heard.  :))
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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2016, 07:42:14 AM »
I'll bet 10 bucks to a doughnut that AH has several of what he talks about on his property and likely invented it.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2016, 10:18:27 AM »
Plant maters on it.....naw man...old toliet tanks work fine for them....  thumb1

Now throw a horse shoe pit on top of the area, maybe a picnic table, even a cornhole arena... You dont plant nothin on this thing, like a turd tank, in dry weather you get a big dead dry crunchy square spot in the yard.. Oh gee.... Whats the 3 foot x 6 foot dead spot in yer yard Joe Bob, cause your poop box is over yonder, you member, we did that sucker at night so the building inspectors didnt see nuthin.......

Besides...you dont want to dig up what you might need or want to eat..

But hey.... I dont know nuthin bout no hillbillys buring freezers or ice chests, poop tanks..... or other big things :)
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Offline Dannyboy53

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2016, 11:01:20 AM »
Danny, another thing you can try is large size ziplock bags, or using those vacuum bags :)

Power Surge at a recent gun show I saw a man selling those heavy duty plastic bags with the vacuum machine to be used to seal cartridges, even firearms. We have one of those that Mary uses quite a lot in putting up food. I'm thinking this would be a good way to "preserve" some people I know!


Hippie that wouldn't be a bad project around here, it real easy to dig holes in Florida!

Online Phosphorus32

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2016, 11:38:26 AM »
Hippie that wouldn't be a bad project around here, it real easy to dig holes in Florida!

Sand? Yeah, we got sand! We live on the world's largest sandbar!  rofl

Actually, there's a lot of interesting karst topography in Florida too. I love the springs and caves e.g., Wakulla.

Cool stuff Danny  thumb1  I'd guess the dessicant packs inside the rubber lid sealed ammo cans would last a good long time, especially in the temperature moderated environment (minimizing condensation causing temperature swings) of a buried bucket with it's insulating overlayer of soil and insulating inner layer of air inside the bucket  thumb1

My house is on a 5000 year flood plain filled with round river rock, the digging is not so easy   :))
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 01:19:57 PM by Phosphorus32 »

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2016, 11:45:28 AM »

Cool stuff Danny  thumb1  I'd guess the dessicant packs inside the rubber lid sealed ammo cans would last a good long time, especially in the temperature moderated environment (minimizing condensation causing temperature swings) of a buried bucket with it's insulating overlayer of soil and insulating inner layer of air inside the bucket  thumb1

My house is 5000 year flood plain filled with round river rock, the digging is not so easy   :))

Well you got a diggin bar? Maybe some blastin caps... besides if you use Hippies buried freezer trick  :o you just plug it in and no moisture, it's all froze... rofl2 rofl2
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

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Offline Dannyboy53

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2016, 01:31:02 PM »
Jon there are lots of springs/cave around the state as I'm sure you know, a big attraction. The downside of karst are the sinkholes, I have three on my property!   >:(

Greasemonkey maybe that isn't such a bad idea after all, aren't Russian cartridges made for extreme temperatures?!  :o

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2019, 02:38:16 PM »
Gonna necro-post here.....

The vacuum sealed bags are pretty tough, and they're designed for temperature extremes from going into your freezer and then the contents and be heated in that same bag by simmering in a pot of water.
PVC pipe is also a really good option.

I'm thinking that if your items were vacuum sealed with a dessicant, and then placed in a length of PVC pipe with properly sealed end caps should be essentially protected from any form of moisture or temperature extremes, no?

 

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2019, 04:43:41 PM »
As odd as it sounds, PVC is not impermeable to water.   I've read many a story where someone has buried something in a large pipe and buried it. Many years later, upon opening their time capsule, they are upset to see the corrosion that has occured inside.

The vacuum bags are great though.  As long as you can keep them out of damaging UV, you should be doing pretty good.  thumb1
      

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2019, 05:23:21 AM »
Ok RM......just for the sake of discussion.... :)

If PVC pipe is not impermeable to water.. how do houses use it for water piping under pressures of up to and above 60psig for many years and you never see water weeping, short of pipe condensate on the exterior of the pipe. In the ground there is only atmospheric pressure on the outside and the pressure on the inside could vary slightly depending tempature, but would be close enough to call equal... so 14.7 psi avg outside vs. 14.7 inside.

What was the avg humidity or dew point level when the people in question sealed the pipe? If atmospheric moisture is sealed in, then the interior of the pipe becomes a microenvironment, like a terrarium, moisture can not get out. It will condense and vaporize with tempature changes like during seasonal changes, even daily changes, and it doesn't take alot of moisture to screw up metal, the larger the pipe and the higher the humidity, the more moisture gets sealed inside.

Easy fix.... Pull a vacuum on the pipe, like an A/C system to remove the moisture, negative.... or a below atmospheric pressure causes water vapor to boil and become easily removalble, you remove the air, you remove the moisture. Moisture in an A/C system equals death, acids and all kinds of nasty for the system, which is why when you open a system, a humid day will take longer to evacuate, provided one doesn't use a low pressure dry gas like nitrogen to keep the atmospheric moisture forced out.. Or one could pull a negative pressure and and then charge the pipe with a dry inert gas, again like nitrogen, just a pound or two above atmoospheric to combat any issues w/permeability and exterior pressure.
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun – take the cannoli.

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2019, 10:03:33 AM »
You may be on to something GM but I think you're confusing permeability with leakability.  Pressures are not the driver of fluid transfer through the membrane.  We're not talking massive amounts here, but over time transfer into the sealed pipe causes condensation that can't be explained by the amount of water vapor present when the pipe was initially sealed.  Standard PVC isn't approved for fresh water use internal to a home (buried sprinklers and other external uses are common) and the CPVC that is approved has an impermeable liner.   

I still think the biggest thing causing people's issues is the permeability which is affected by:

1) Total surface area (large tubes = more surface area)
2) Length of the path of resistance (thick walled tube better than thin)
3) Nature of the contaminant (water is actually a more permeable substance through PVC than oxygen for example)
4) Humidity (the higher the humidity the greater the moisture permeation)
5) Length of time (the longer the time the more permeation that occurs)

So if you take a tube large and light enough to put a gun or considerable amount of ammo inside, bury it in moist ground, and leave it there for years, you actually have a pretty bad (almost worst case) environment according to the five criteria I just mentioned.   dntknw1
      

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Remote ammo storage
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2019, 04:25:52 AM »
So.... if one evacuated the "air" and moisture... Added a positive pressure of a pound or two above atmospheric pressure of inert dry nitrogen... It's conceivable it could work, barring the ability to get a truly air tight seal and PVCs ablity to not break down due to external forces or weathering.
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun – take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem