Development of the SKS-45

[Phosphorus32]

I am curious where OP found the photo of the 1944 Prototype? Thank you very much in advance.

I think LC sent it to me 

Here's an interesting precursor to the SKS. 5 round single-stack semi-auto in 7.62x54R a couple of years before the M43 cartridge was approved.

[Loose}{Cannon]

It looks to me like several evolutionary desiged guns made by Simonov resulted in the sks.

[Loose}{Cannon]

These basically look the same other then one has a longer shroud.  You can tell the 1944 magazine (wide portion) compared to the other is not as long. Def not for the larger x54

[Phosphorus32]

These basically look the same other then one has a longer shroud.  You can tell the 1944 magazine (wide portion) compared to the other is not as long. Def not for the larger x54

Good point!    Those two look very closely related.

[pcke2000]

Probably so... I recall that to be the case from years ago, but either the book is wrong, or the web page it wrong.  Someone is wrong.  Lol.   Need a pic of rotating bolt on that critter.

Please...  Dont call me sir.   Lol

Roger!

[pcke2000]

Thank you very much gentlemen for all the info posted. I am trying to dig out more info of Russian SKS development. And I'll post here if I find something new or interesting.

[Dannyboy53]

Here's an interesting precursor to the SKS. 5 round single-stack semi-auto in 7.62x54R a couple of years before the M43 cartridge was approved.

Looking at the front end of the stock on this one, specifically the split all the way out to the stock ferrul/sling swivel makes me wonder if this carbine broke down like the M1 Garand.

[Loose}{Cannon]

   
Tula State Museum of Weapons.  Whats that thar on the far right!?!?

[Loose}{Cannon]

Notice it bayo attachment.....   Is like this one from page 1... Russian forum user called it an SKSa

http://popgun.ru/viewtopic.php?f=171&t=191480&start=350

Here, found in their bins photo SKSa experienced in 1949! He - tetrahedral bayonet. So in this part of the authorized book "It was used early Russian SKS made ​​in 1944 and in 1949 before replaced by blede bayonet" confirmation yet. About SKS carbines early 1944, the Americans do not know what they write - they at all have never seen, because there detachable bayonet.
For 1949 - see for yourself

.

[Loose}{Cannon]

You love it.   

[Phosphorus32]

Fascinating!  The magazine is very different too. They did a lot of experimentation with the magazine based on this and the pics in D. N. Bolotin's book "Soviet Small Arms and Ammunition: p. 116-117 (English version).

D. N. Bolotin, p. 116



D. N. Bolotin, p. 117

[Loose}{Cannon]

There's like 300 dif experamental variations of one sort or another.   

[pcke2000]

the different bayonet attachment is also mentioned in A. B. Zhuk's book 'Rifles and Automatic' 1987

[pcke2000]

another interesting article on Russian SKS:

http://samara.rgantd.ru/activity/shelf/19947/

[Boris Badinov]

C.I.A. intel reports dated 1955,  indicate that as late as 1954 the secrecy surrounding the SKS and 7.62x39 round was so intensive that if one soldier lost even one round, the entire battalion would suffer punishment.

This makes me question Bolotin's claim that the round and prototype rifle were fielded in battle so late in a war that the Soviets were already winning.

Chumak's detailed history of the sks development states that the prototype rifle was issued for a five-day period in August of 1944, and used in the unit's combat operations but that it was not tested in combat conditions.

To me this short period issue of a limited number of prototype rifles matches the controlled secrecy seen in 1954 for the production model.

My guess would be that they were issued to a rear echelon unit where the rounds and prototype rifle could be kept secret-- field tested literally in a field.

Does Bolotin have a source for this claim of use in combat with the 1st Byelorussian front?

[Greasemonkey]

Just to throw it out there.. The Ak was spotted by the CIA in '53, there is a document from April 29, 1953 and it, the AK was in actual duty use..

It was a part of a report which told that during a demining operation in Leningrad and Novgorod oblasts (administrative division) the soldiers of Krasnoselsk infantry regiment were spotted with a new submachine gun. According to that report, the recruits of the mentioned regiment were equipped with PPSh submachine guns whereas the more experienced personnel was carrying a new gas operated firearm

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/03/13/cia-first-memory-sketch-of-the-kalashnikov-rifle/
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a19421013/a-cia-agents-drawing-of-the-first-ak-47-sighting/

Russia did pretty good hiding the SKS for 10 years, where as the AK was only hidden for 4 or 5 years.

[Boris Badinov]

First off, thanks for the link about the AK. I was not aware of anything predating 1954 intel.

I'm primarily interested in the claims of combat use of the SKS prototypes in the late stages of WW2.

Ruslan Chumak's detailed history of the  development of the SKS -- though I have only read it in translation -- indicates that the handful of prototypes issued to an artillery unit of the 1st Belorussian Front for  a five day period in late August of 1944 were not tested in front line combat.

Given that 30 or so prototype rifles were issued to an artillery unit suggests that they were some distance removed from the front lines. And the short period of issue-- August 14th to 18th-- suggests that it was a highly controlled environment likely related to the secrecy of the project.

The testimony reported from the members of the unit to whom the prototypes were issued, lends further support (imo) that the field testing was not combat oriented. The problems detailed include:
- heavy felt recoil which severely limited the ability to shoot effectively after more than 50 rounds,
- large muzzle flash that negated any advantage of concealment
- feed reliability issues related the resulted in stovepipes, fail to eject, and failures to extract

Those three issues alone, suggest to me that the prototype had significant design hurdles that needed to be cleared before the weapon could be trusted in a true combat environment.

[Phosphorus32]

Yup, I doubt that it was tested in front line combat in WWII. Besides, whatever they tested was undoubtedly a much different older sibling of the rifle we now know as the SKS-45.

There are a number of things I need to update here but I haven’t gotten to it yet.

[Boris Badinov]

It's my understanding that the rifle Chumak is describes being tested in in August of 1944 was the prototype and not the final production design. No?

[running-man]

I believe the transition from x54R to x39 in the ‘SKS’ didn’t occur until after the war was over no?   If true I’d think that The prototypes supposedly used in WWII surely were in that caliber and only slightly resembled the post ‘48 SKS45 that we all know and love.