Author Topic: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number  (Read 33804 times)

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Offline 7.62FMJ

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #160 on: February 12, 2020, 06:06:24 AM »
They came through both times, now. Musta made a wrong toin at Albuquerque wink1.  Nice rifle.  I'll agree that you might want a spike bayonet, though.

I think it was my fault.  For some reason, imgur is putting "i." before the link here lately, so it reads [img]http://www.i.imgur.com/picture....  [/ img]
I have to remove the "i." after the www and it will show up. 

Offline Randy

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #161 on: February 12, 2020, 08:20:09 PM »
I don't want to cause a ruckus here but since I had some time on my hands I read through this thread today. It raised at least one question since I went and looked up the simple Chinese version of symbols regarding Provinces and city's. One character stood out that is not in sync with what is posted here and I would be interested to see where one or the other might be misleading me.

The site I used is here> http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/maps/provincestable.html

The Chinese character is >西

If I'm not reading the chart wrong, or there is some other reason, I see this character to mean - XI - as in Jiangxi 江 西, Shaanxi 陕 西 , Shanxi 山 西, or Guangxi Zhuang 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区 

Any guidance on my foolhardy attempt at Chinese research would be helpful.

Online Phosphorus32

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #162 on: February 14, 2020, 02:52:04 PM »
jliu123 who started off this thread knows a number of native Chinese speakers, so our confidence is high on the assignments. I do know Hanzi characters have different meanings depending on how they are juxtaposed but that's about where my knowledge ends. They're definitely hard to translate correctly without a good knowledge of both Mandarin and the Hanzi characters.

I refer you to earlier pages of the current thread and also the related thread below:

https://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=993.msg12133#msg12133

Offline pcke2000

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #163 on: February 16, 2020, 04:50:02 PM »
I don't want to cause a ruckus here but since I had some time on my hands I read through this thread today. It raised at least one question since I went and looked up the simple Chinese version of symbols regarding Provinces and city's. One character stood out that is not in sync with what is posted here and I would be interested to see where one or the other might be misleading me.

The site I used is here> http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/maps/provincestable.html

The Chinese character is >西

If I'm not reading the chart wrong, or there is some other reason, I see this character to mean - XI - as in Jiangxi 江 西, Shaanxi 陕 西 , Shanxi 山 西, or Guangxi Zhuang 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区 

Any guidance on my foolhardy attempt at Chinese research would be helpful.

For abbreviations of different Provinces, it is actually much simpler and has certain rules. In this specific case, Jiang Xi 江 西 is Gan 赣, Shaan Xi (in PinYin, it's actually Shan Xi) 陕 西 is Shan 陕, Shan Xi 山 西 is Jin 晋, Guang Xi Zhuang Zu Zi Zhi Qu 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区 is Gui  桂.

西 alone would not refer to any of the Provinces mentioned above.

However, for small places/facilities/organizations, it could be much more complicated, that's why I still do not fully believe the currently popular definitions of Chinese characters (e.g. 旅,白,吉) on DB/DP labeled Chinese Type 56 rifles.

Offline Randy

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #164 on: February 16, 2020, 06:13:46 PM »
I see. From what Jliu said 哈: 哈尔滨 is (Harbin City). However, it's my understanding that Chinese symbology is very precise. (I may wrong though), so in considering that precision the first character her in front of the colon interprets as WHAT: So the entire glyph interprets as - what: Harbin.... It doesn't specify that Harbin is a city, town, or whatever they may be called in china. So, just maybe, Harbin is a region? Like a county (or their provinces) with Harbin City within it's boundary's?

The reason I think this is because if these rifles are destined for other country's they really didn't want to give away precise arsenal locations. Therefore, no markings to signify arsenal or location it was built.

However, the bigger picture would possibly prove that theory wrong since battlefield pickups would have the arsenal stamped in them.

Just shootin spitballs at the wall.

Regardless, China has been around much longer than most governments. They've through so many reconstructions only they know can keep track. Which brings me back to them possibly using older out-of-date and out of use symbology for stamping some rifles and not others?

Offline pcke2000

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #165 on: February 16, 2020, 08:12:10 PM »
I see. From what Jliu said 哈: 哈尔滨 is (Harbin City). However, it's my understanding that Chinese symbology is very precise. (I may wrong though), so in considering that precision the first character her in front of the colon interprets as WHAT: So the entire glyph interprets as - what: Harbin.... It doesn't specify that Harbin is a city, town, or whatever they may be called in china. So, just maybe, Harbin is a region? Like a county (or their provinces) with Harbin City within it's boundary's?

The reason I think this is because if these rifles are destined for other country's they really didn't want to give away precise arsenal locations. Therefore, no markings to signify arsenal or location it was built.

However, the bigger picture would possibly prove that theory wrong since battlefield pickups would have the arsenal stamped in them.

Just shootin spitballs at the wall.

Regardless, China has been around much longer than most governments. They've through so many reconstructions only they know can keep track. Which brings me back to them possibly using older out-of-date and out of use symbology for stamping some rifles and not others?

No, when referring 哈 to a place in China, it almost always means Harbin City. It's been years and official. Harbin is a city, not a region. (It's not like New York may mean NYC or New York State)

Online firstchoice

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #166 on: February 16, 2020, 08:39:40 PM »
pcke2000, what is your best theory, guess, or otherwise, on the single Chinese character on the DB/DP rifles? They all seem to be associated with a city in northern China but that's as much as can be surmised from the single character. Our assumption that the character is the location of manufacture is just that. Assumption. I'd be very intersted in your opinion and won't hold you to any absolutes.

Also, in your "travels" around the internet forums, have you encountered any other information or theories that could add to ours? All information is useful, whether it's determined to be correct or not. It can help to prove or disprove a theory, especially when it comes from different sources and research efforts. Even the blowhard know-it-alls that get little correct usually have a positive effect on debate. It makes the debate stronger and the research more in depth. So we are definitely open to more opinions and theories.

firstchoice

Online Boris Badinov

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #167 on: February 17, 2020, 10:24:16 AM »
They all seem to be associated with a city in northern China but that's as much as can be surmised from the single character.

Recently I've begun to wonder if the DB/DP carbines are somehow related to Defector policing or border patrol along the North Korean and Soviet borders in the extreme northeast of China.

There are dozen city stamps (11 known and 1 unknown) associated with the DB/DP carbines.
And at least 11 of those twelve cities are located in the three northeastern-most provinces which together comprise the geographical and historical region of Inner-Manchuria: Jilin Province, Liaoning Province, and Heilongjiang Province. My guess would be that the unkown city stamp is in that region as well (maybe inner Mongolia?).



Jilin Province Cities:

Tonghua
ChangChun
Jilin
Yanji
Baicheng
Siping

Liaoning Province Cities:
Dailan
Shenyang
Dandong
Lushun

Heilongjiang Province Cities:
Harbin


« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 08:20:51 AM by Boris Badinov »

Online Larry D.

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #168 on: February 17, 2020, 12:43:32 PM »
Good Lord fellas.
I'm still wondering how you're posting in Chinese, Pinyin or otherwise, and now you're speculating about Chinese geography.

I love this place.

You don't get this form of education anywhere else. Seems like other SKS-centric forums are stuck using conventional (even if proven wrong) "information.
 
Η ΤΑΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ

Online Boris Badinov

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #169 on: February 17, 2020, 12:48:23 PM »
TBH, it's been known for a few years that the DB/DB cities are in the northeast of China-- nothing new and not my discovery.

It wasn't until a week ago that I actually looked at them on a map... and the NK and Soviet borders just really stick out...

Offline Randy

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #170 on: February 17, 2020, 06:37:20 PM »
Good Lord fellas.
I'm still wondering how you're posting in Chinese, Pinyin or otherwise, and now you're speculating about Chinese geography.

I love this place.

You don't get this form of education anywhere else. Seems like other SKS-centric forums are stuck using conventional (even if proven wrong) "information.
 


Google-foo.

More commonly known as Google translate.

Online firstchoice

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #171 on: February 18, 2020, 08:14:48 PM »
Good Lord fellas.
I'm still wondering how you're posting in Chinese, Pinyin or otherwise, and now you're speculating about Chinese geography.

I love this place.

You don't get this form of education anywhere else. Seems like other SKS-centric forums are stuck using conventional (even if proven wrong) "information.
 


Google-foo.

More commonly known as Google translate.

Well, when I've used Google Translate, I get a half-way wierd explanation of the translation. I can usually get the gist of the translation but a lot is left to the imagination and I end up simply guessing the actual definitives. I like to read a lot of research and debate like we have here. Sometimes, as in this case, we still don't know the absolute meaning of the single Chinese character on the DB/DP rifles. But we've learned what the characters represent and possible theories as to what their purpose on the rifle is. Maybe, BIG MAYBE, someday we'll get to ask a former arsenal employee about the question. I'm not holding my breath, though. :))

firstchoice

Online Boris Badinov

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #172 on: February 18, 2020, 09:51:18 PM »
Does the DP  city character : 白

refer to

Baicheng 城市   or   Baishan 山市  ?

Both are cities in the Jilin Province. Baishan is  very close to the NK border and Baicheng is further north.



Has this already been discussed?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 10:20:57 PM by Boris Badinov »

Online Boris Badinov

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #173 on: February 19, 2020, 08:30:15 AM »
Maybe, BIG MAYBE, someday we'll get to ask a former arsenal employee about the question. I'm not holding my breath, though. :))
firstchoice[/size]

If the DP/DB designation is associated with a specialized authority regime particular to Northeastern China, the designation may be easily reconginzed and identifiable by someone who has lived in the region.  ?

Online firstchoice

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #174 on: February 19, 2020, 11:13:06 AM »
Maybe, BIG MAYBE, someday we'll get to ask a former arsenal employee about the question. I'm not holding my breath, though. :))
firstchoice

If the DP/DB designation is associated with a specialized authority regime particular to Northeastern China, the designation may be easily reconginzed and identifiable by someone who has lived in the region. ?

That's my thought, and hope. Someday, maybe someone from that region will be able to put some of the missing pieces together for us.

firstchoice

Online Phosphorus32

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #175 on: February 19, 2020, 01:25:40 PM »
This sticky on Gunboards is interesting with regard to the Vietnamese SKSs but germane to the topic at hand are posts 28-30 by a former resident of China, xl1997, Lin Xu. The Smithsonian article in which his avocation is discussed (Post 28) mentions his home town as Jilin City. In post 30 he confirms that Type 56s were made there.


https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1085485-Vietnam-No-1-Project-SKS-Factory-in-North-Vietnam

Offline running-man

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #176 on: February 19, 2020, 02:31:27 PM »
Does the DP  city character : 白

refer to

Baicheng 城市   or   Baishan 山市  ?

Both are cities in the Jilin Province. Baishan is  very close to the NK border and Baicheng is further north.



Has this already been discussed?

On the surface, it could be.  But digging deeper, according to wikipedia (I know, I know...but easiest source to look up during lunch) Baishan city was originally named Hunjiang City in March, 1959 and was only named Baishan in 1994.  Baicheng was named in 1938 so that name fits the time period of the '70s DB builds much better.

On a side note, Hunjiang City Chinese characters are 浑江区 which I don't remember seeing on any DP/DB guns.
      

Offline running-man

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #177 on: February 19, 2020, 02:50:29 PM »
For abbreviations of different Provinces, it is actually much simpler and has certain rules. In this specific case, Jiang Xi 江 西 is Gan 赣, Shaan Xi (in PinYin, it's actually Shan Xi) 陕 西 is Shan 陕, Shan Xi 山 西 is Jin 晋, Guang Xi Zhuang Zu Zi Zhi Qu 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区 is Gui  桂.

西 alone would not refer to any of the Provinces mentioned above.

However, for small places/facilities/organizations, it could be much more complicated, that's why I still do not fully believe the currently popular definitions of Chinese characters (e.g. 旅,白,吉) on DB/DP labeled Chinese Type 56 rifles.

Pcke, would love to hear your interpretation of the DP/DB characters.  Every one I've found has matched the first character of a city in Heilongjiang, Jilin, or Liaoning provinces, so J Liu's interpretation rang pretty true with me.  If there's a plausible alternative view, I'd love to hear it. 
      

Online Boris Badinov

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Re: More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number
« Reply #178 on: February 19, 2020, 04:47:01 PM »


On the surface, it could be.  But digging deeper, according to wikipedia (I know, I know...but easiest source to look up during lunch) Baishan city was originally named Hunjiang City in March, 1959 and was only named Baishan in 1994.  Baicheng was named in 1938 so that name fits the time period of the '70s DB builds much better.

On a side note, Hunjiang City Chinese characters are 浑江区 which I don't remember seeing on any DP/DB guns.

 thumb1

Full disclosure: the wiki page for Baishan was open in my browser when I posted my last query. Apparently, I was too lazy to scroll down to the second paragraph.  thankyou1

Thanks, rm.