Fair deal or snookered

[montigre]

Thought I'd bring this up for group consideration since I am still pretty new to all of this.  I was cruising the GB database to see if there was anything interesting I'd like to watch as my last purchase of the season when low and behold I came across this listing for a 1953 Tula. It looked a little odd to me so I clicked on the link only to discover the receiver cover had an Izhevsk stamp.

Well, I hemmed and hawed for a little while cuz it was at least lightly refurbed (sanded and refinished stock and BBQ bolt carrier), but the rest looked as issued (except for the missing bayo and cleaning rod for which I have spares).  So, I decided to toss some coin out there to see what the bidding climate was like.  Meanwhile I asked the seller for a few additional photos to make sure at least all the exterior numbers matched without signs of force matching. Bidding remained slow for quite a while, so I went to catch a few minutes of the debate.

When I came back to check on the item, some others had recognized that the listing was possibly for an Izhevsk and not a Tula and began piling on the pressure.  I decided the max I wanted to pay for a refurb and joined the game.  After about an hour of some interesting back and forth, I came out the winner.  Here's the listing info:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/585570220

Now, what is sending up a yellow flag in my mind is the serial number on the receiver cover back that was on one of the additional pics the seller sent me that shows it as a 2-line, 2 letter and 4 number thingy and it was my understanding that configuration was not standard for an Izhevsk.  I must add here that the receiver cover remains in the original 2-tone blue and has not been scrubbed and restamped and all of the stamped numbers are from the same die set.  Also, there are none of the usual refurb marks on the wood or metal that I can find from the pics....

So, what do y'all think, does this represent an unusually marked refurbished Izhevsk or is it really a Tula in Izzy's clothing? 

[running-man]

Now, what is sending up a yellow flag in my mind is the serial number on the receiver cover back that was on one of the additional pics the seller sent me that shows it as a 2-line, 2 letter and 4 number thingy and it was my understanding that configuration was not standard for an Izhevsk.  I must add here that the receiver cover remains in the original 2-tone blue and has not been scrubbed and restamped and all of the stamped numbers are from the same die set.  Also, there are none of the usual refurb marks on the wood or metal that I can find from the pics....

I would lean towards it not being a true '53 Izhevsk based on that two line receiver cover, though I really only have two examples of four digit Izhevsk...they are simply not very common at all.   

However, there isn't a single component that isn't a '53 or '54 on that entire gun, so there's hope! 

Get a nice photo of the receiver S/N, magazine S/N, bolt and bolt carrier S/N, along with a nice head on shot of the receiver cover S/N and we'll be able to tell if they match for certain.  Izhevsk numerals are very specific and I believe that the 3's will tell the story for you on this one:

'49/'50/'51 Tula 3's:


Izhevsk 3's:


The 3 font on the receiver cover appears to be more Tula-like, but the ones on the rest of the gun will truly determine the pedigree.

[montigre]

Thanks, RM.  I will get the photos up when I receive it and can take it apart.

I found 2 other another refurbed '53 Izzys that also have 2 row SN on the receiver back.  The 2nd one also has my crazy 8's.  This just may be another variant after all.    

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/580522057

http://www.gunbroker.com/Item/579523010

[running-man]

First one is an Izhevsk as the 4's are a dead giveaway, but that receiver cover has surely been scrubbed to within an inch of it's life. May actually be a '54, I'll have to look up the S/N prefix when I get to my computer.  Second one is an Izhevsk too I think. Harder to tell with that one, 8's are really hard to compare but the aspect ratio is very Izhevsk like.

Honestly, it's splitting hairs.  Nobody truly knows, least of all me.   If you bought something that you like and the price was right, then you did good.

[montigre]

Honestly, it's splitting hairs.  Nobody truly knows, least of all me.   If you bought something that you like and the price was right, then you did good. 

I fell you have the wrong idea here.....In my present life I am an investigator for the Feds, so I very much enjoy very much the tedious aspects of researching histories and whether or not something is genuine or not.  My reasons for this thread were not to vindicate my purchase, but to get to the truth. 

I initially wished to know if the gun was perhaps a fake, as I have read opinions on this and other forums that this was a possibility and the two line SN on the cover was primarily suspect.  I posted the 2 examples to add to the already available data that the 2 row serializing of some guns seems to be an acceptable practice of the Izhevsk factory.  I was hoping this would help to expand our knowledge a little of these rare birds. 

I know others have much more real-time experience researching these guns and I appreciate the time and effort that has been put forth to properly categorize the many variants, and I apologize if I have stepped on any toes by expressing my research findings.... 

[running-man]

The typed page is a horrible medium to convey intent & emotion.  You haven't and truly cannot step on anyones toes with regard to hypotheses and research, especially mine.  That's why most all the data I've collected is posted or at least available somewhere on this site.  It's wide open as far as I'm concerned: whether you take someone's ideas and expand on them or whether you dynamite the entire thing and start over with a brand new hypothesis, either way works when it's supported by the data.  I'll support whatever thoughts you (or anyone else) have if you have the data to back yourself up.  There are no golden calves here, anything and everything should be scrutinized and if some hypothesis fails short, it either must be expanded, modified, or tossed out all together.  Sometimes the data itself is suspect, so that's always something that needs to be scrutinized too.

My intent in saying that it's splitting hairs is this: To a large majority of the collecting community and the gun community in general, any SKS45 with a 'matching' XYZ receiver cover is an XYZ gun.  I'm reminded of this *every* time I visit a gun board in Canada, they aren't quite ready to universally accept that the receiver cover might be a replacement yet it seems.  There are certain blatantly obvious exceptions to this where for example a gun has a matching receiver cover, yet other components are blatantly wrong.  Here's one of my favorite example of this, this gun sold for big bucks on GB and the buyer had to unload it at a loss when told that it was a '56 gun and not a '49:





When a gun is like any of the three you posted, all with '53-'54 era components, then it becomes exceptionally hard to "verify" that it's a Izhevsk, much less a '53 Izhevsk.  90% of the milsurp community really doesn't care, the receiver cover says what it is and that's that. 

When I say "Nobody truly knows, least of all me.", we have to recognize that given the same data set, two people might come to two totally different conclusions.  I'm a very small fish in the very large pond of SKS collecting and I try and stay as humble as I can.  I fully recognize that I don't know everything and I've lost count of the many errors I've made in the past.  That's ok though, it's how I learn!   I want to make sure people are not taking my thoughts as gospel.  It's just my opinion.  Maybe an opinion grounded by some data, but still an opinion.  If we're all lemmings going over the cliff, that really doesn't help advance the collecting community.  I will say that in some people's eyes, I'm not even a 'real' collector.  I don't own all that many SKSs.  I wasn't tramping through the jungles of Vietnam in '69.  I don't own any of the big three or a VN bringback.  I don't choose to spend time, money, and effort collecting every single arsenal stamp, variation, year, etc. of every country.  Whatever label people want to use on me I'm ok with! 

These three guns you've presented will all go into the database, and at first they will be placed in the "unknown" category like many of the refurbs out there.  If I can corroborate a prefix with a specific year from an as-issued gun, then it'll get moved to the appropriate year and arsenal.  As the database grows, we can begin to connect the dots on certain things.   You could easily be right with your thought that some kind of change occurred in Izhevsk production where the receiver cover S/N went from only a single line to a dual line like the Tulas.   

[montigre]

You're right, the typed word is very difficult to correctly express unless done poetically.   

Ouch, so a Tula letter gun with later generation hardware was represented as a 1949 just because of the date on the receiver cover?  That must have hurt the buyer and I fully understand the confusion this could cause in the collecting community... 

Like I mentioned in the earlier post, I will take break down pics when I get this gun and hopefully something will help with the research.