SKS type 54 / assault carbine time line

[sawtoothjoe]

Hi I’m new here and joined as I have questions and some information on the type 84. I was going to bump the thread from 2016 by XXXSKS but thought better not to as a first post. I have some SKS, AK, NDM 86 and norinco 1911. I’m on a number of other sites but mostly Glock Talk Collector forum.
So a type 84 was on Gun broker last week and I had never seen one so started searches. Importation numbers are all over the place and I realize this has been covered before so be patient.
Some say 1500, 1000, 800, 500, 400, and less than 100. The less than 100 was from 2023 on the Akforum.net site by Spuninmo. I will add a screen shot but he states “rumor has it 500 were imported,but less than 100 were actually cleared through customs. The rest were turned away and returned to China”. So in XXXSKS excellent thread and SKS guide are adds in SGN. The “teaser” add is January 1 1989 saying they “will arrive by February 1” he also states they would be ready for sale March 1. Then the SGN add on March 10 1989 alerting the public they were available for sale.
The legislation “Gun Control Act of 1989” was introduced to the Senate on February 8 1989 and was made permanent July 7 1989. The kicker is that Bush signed an Executive Order on March 15 1989 banning the importation prior to the final Senate vote. I know it’s getting to be a wall of text I get shxx for this in the Collector forum.
  So Navy Arms had these incoming by Feb 1, legislation was introduced on the 8th. They were ready for sale March 1 and Bush banned importation on the 15 th. That’s only 44 total days or about 6 work weeks minus Presidents’ Day so 29 work days. So does anyone have any information on how long it took to do the paperwork and clearing Customs in 1989? It’s a very tight timeline and I think it has something to do with how uncommon these are and that they were recognized as collectible immediately. Also the Type 84 designation did away with “ Assault Carbine “ linking it to the ban.
With them being made out of pre existing existing guns the serial numbers are all over the place unlike the polyteck Hunter, the only way to firm this up is a Roll call with members and old posts. It’s a fun search and I’m enjoying it . Thanks Joe

[Witchywoman]

Really neat retro ads. I used to salivate over ads like that. Shame I was not an adult yet at the time of this advertisement. I would of started my collection a lot earlier had I been! I miss prices like that, hell I miss the prices of the early 2000's even. BTW that NDM 86 you have is super rare and worth a small  fortune. I wish Dragunov's were not banned. Its just totally ridiculous how they were demonized and restricted from importation so early on.

Hi I’m new here and joined as I have questions and some information on the type 84. I was going to bump the thread from 2016 by XXXSKS but thought better not to as a first post. I have some SKS, AK, NDM 86 and norinco 1911. I’m on a number of other sites but mostly Glock Talk Collector forum.
So a type 84 was on Gun broker last week and I had never seen one so started searches. Importation numbers are all over the place and I realize this has been covered before so be patient.
Some say 1500, 1000, 800, 500, 400, and less than 100. The less than 100 was from 2023 on the Akforum.net site by Spuninmo. I will add a screen shot but he states “rumor has it 500 were imported,but less than 100 were actually cleared through customs. The rest were turned away and returned to China”. So in XXXSKS excellent thread and SKS guide are adds in SGN. The “teaser” add is January 1 1989 saying they “will arrive by February 1” he also states they would be ready for sale March 1. Then the SGN add on March 10 1989 alerting the public they were available for sale.
The legislation “Gun Control Act of 1989” was introduced to the Senate on February 8 1989 and was made permanent July 7 1989. The kicker is that Bush signed an Executive Order on March 15 1989 banning the importation prior to the final Senate vote. I know it’s getting to be a wall of text I get shxx for this in the Collector forum.
  So Navy Arms had these incoming by Feb 1, legislation was introduced on the 8th. They were ready for sale March 1 and Bush banned importation on the 15 th. That’s only 44 total days or about 6 work weeks minus Presidents’ Day so 29 work days. So does anyone have any information on how long it took to do the paperwork and clearing Customs in 1989? It’s a very tight timeline and I think it has something to do with how uncommon these are and that they were recognized as collectible immediately. Also the Type 84 designation did away with “ Assault Carbine “ linking it to the ban.
With them being made out of pre existing existing guns the serial numbers are all over the place unlike the polyteck Hunter, the only way to firm this up is a Roll call with members and old posts. It’s a fun search and I’m enjoying it . Thanks Joe

[running-man]

Welcome to the board Joe.    You won't get crap here for posting a wall of text.  It's an interesting idea you have.  I don't know that anyone has the answers, but you never know until you ask!

The one who would have been in the best position to answer your question would have been XXXSKS (also named Joe), but sadly he passed away in October 2016.   Powersurge took up the mantle of researching and tracking the commercial Chinese SKS variants and indeed before his passing, XXXSKS send PS a good bit of research data and information, so he would be the best current source. 

As far as the window for importation, I think you have a pretty good handle on much of it, but it may not have been as short as you think.  The February "on the water!" ad mentions 16" Paratrooper SKSs but makes no mention of the Assault Carbines and while it does mention the 16" length and short, cut down bayo, it makes no mention of the detachable magazine.  It is conceivable that Navy Arms might have begun the importation of those as early as 1988, knowing that the detachable magazine could throw a monkey wrench into the "sporting arms" criteria for surplus military firearm importation and trying to beat the ticking AWB clock that many in the industry knew was coming as early as 1986.  Of course, you may be 100% right and the "on the water!" announcement could be specifically for Assault Carbines but I don't see why it was not feasible to get them in within the minimum 44 day time period you note.

The whole 500 imported but 100 cleared through customs doesn't make terribly much sense to me though.  My understanding of importation is that a batch of guns is listed on an ATF form 6 and that batch then is either approved or denied wholesale based on whatever asinine rules and CFR requirements that must be followed (think 18 U.S.C. 922(r) for example).  There would not have been a piecemeal approach to approving the first 100, and denying the last 400 in the batch.  I suppose it could have happened where they approved all 500, and then turned off the spigot after 100 got in, but typically when they turn off the spigot, they make a concerted effort to pull the firearms before they are distributed via retail sale (think SinoBanian Russian SKS45s mistakenly imported alongside Chinese type 56s in 2014; those Russian guns were immediately culled from the import and all distributors & subsequently collected and destroyed when the government realized they were unimportable due to the VRA).  It could also have happened that the first test batch was 100 firearms and the subsequent batches were larger so only a small amount of capital was in jeopardy due to the unknown outcomes of the importation process.  The first batch is approved, subsequent batches are not because of the EO.  I could see that happening I guess...

I only have records of 4 assault carbines in my files.  Not my field of interest though (again PS is the guy here), so I have never really sought them out.  We can maybe start an assault carbine thread and see how many we can ID.  If we get 50 or so from our little survey, you can pretty much say the only 100 imported is a myth as we are a tiny subsection of the SKS collecting community and I would expect the real #'s to be 5x more. 

[Phosphorus32]

Welcome! A lot of text is fine  How else are we going to explain the details.

A few details with regard to your import window, which does indeed seem very short 

The Senate legislation (Assault Weapons Control Act, S.386; introduced 2/8/1989) you refer to was never enacted, so the day it was introduced to the Senate, isn’t relevant with regard to establishing the importation window.

GHW Bush’s ban of 1989 based on his ATF’s interpretation of the sporting use provisions in the 1968 GCA was announced on March 15, 1989, and did go into permanent effect on July 7, 1989, so I think that March 15 is the close of your window, depending on exactly how it was enforced with regard to shipments floating in port or in US warehouses. A minor point, it wasn’t done by issue of an Executive Order https://www.federalregister.gov/presidential-documents/executive-orders/george-h-w-bush/1989

Here’s a quote from a March 15, 1989 NYT article. I think the numbers are interesting even though it doesn’t help with regard to your specific model:

“Mr. Bennett said that since the first of the year, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms had received requests from importers to bring in 113,732 such weapons. In all of 1988, 44,000 such weapons were imported, up from 40,000 in 1987 and only 4,000 in 1986.

Mr. Bennett,” (Bush’s Director of National Drug Policy, who pushed for the ban) “as coordinator of antidrug policy, did not have the power to impose such a ban but suggested it to Treasury Secretary Nicholas F. Brady after asking Mr. Higgins last Thursday what could be done.

Chinese Rifles Affected

The decision would ban the importation of certain rifles manufactured in China and elsewhere and four other designs made in Belgium, Austria and Israel.“


I also found a WA Post article from July 7, 1989, and quote below:

“He (Stephen Higgins, ATF Director) said that the Customs Service has seized 20,000 weapons awaiting entry into the United States and that they will be returned to their makers unless sold to U.S. law-enforcement authorities. The 43 types of weapons barred permanently are: AK47, AK47S, AK74, AKS, AKM, AKMS, 84S, ARM, 84S1, 84S3, HK91, HK93, HK94, G3SA. K1, K2, AR100, M14S, MAS223, SIG 550SP, SIG 551SP, SKS with detachable magazine, 86S, 86S7, 87S. Galil, Type 56, Type 56S, Valmet M76, Valmet M78, M76 counter sniper, FAL, L1A1A, SAR 48. AUG, FNC, Uzi carbine, Algimec AGMI, AR180, Australian Automatic Arms SAR, Beretta AR70, Beretta BM59 and CIS SR88. The seven approved for importation: AK22, AP74, Galil-22, M16-22, Unique F11, Erma EM1.22 and Valmet Hunter.”

My intent in citing details on dates and terminology is only to help with establishing the actual window, not to be pedantic

Interesting discussion 

[Greasemonkey]

The KFS PS SKS is another where people say only a pallet was imported.

The one time I visited Navy Arms in Martinsville WVA, I mentioned the early days of imports and SKSs, I kind of got the cold shoulder, other milsurps didn't seems to be any issue... the SKS, there seems to be something to it.  The French FR2 sniper they have is tempting.... pricey but tempting. 

[sawtoothjoe]

Thank you for the clarification on the EO, in my search it was an article from the LA Times that he signed it. https://millercenter.org/president/george-h-w-bush/key-events. Thank you gentlemen, I had was wrong with it passing July 7 1989, https://scholarship.depauw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1236&context=studentresearch. It is an interesting rabbit hole, for sure. This link states EO, it seems very muddy https://www.swtimes.com/story/opinion/columns/guest/2018/03/10/another-perspective-march-10-2018/13106664007/ This an interesting one as to all bans and I will end it here. These links are mostly anti-gun, im not. https://www.thoughtco.com/us-gun-control-timeline-3963620. It does seem to be the Treasury Department and not an Executive Order. Im still having some problems with made permanent July 7 1989, how did they? Any way I will post a pic of the one I have incoming and serial number. Thanks for the information.

[Greasemonkey]

One thing that may have precipitated the ban.. many importers were getting highly scrutinized over business practices in the late 80's, and many had multiple run ins with the 3 digit agencies. Navy Arms was no exception, they were having issues in the 60's.. https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/349/601/104156/
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/1964-treasury-sting-uncovered-gun-warehouse-199506

Some US importers were even traced to Chinese ownership and corporations. Some of this is outlined in the import stamps post. It really is a deep muddy rabbit hole when you start digging into the surplus rifle importers up until the ban.

[running-man]

The government is a multi-headed beast with bureaucracy that makes your head spin.  Because all the agencies *don't* stay in their swim lanes, the spillover into areas normally governed by a different agency is extensive.  It's certainly the case that when the government wants to squash something, yet it is not something Congress wants to take responsibility for because it would be a career ender, they do it via diktat from federal agencies 'interpreting' the current laws on the books. 

Want to proliferate (illegal) immigration?  Have the Dept. of State change the interpretation of who is eligible to receive asylum and how the asylum process is performed and suddenly ICE's hands are tied.  Want to ban a certain class of firearm from importation?  Have the Justice Dept. (ATF) change the interpretation of "sporting arms" on the fly and then suddenly US Customs has their hands tied and cannot allow the importation of something that was importable yesterday even though no new law or EO was signed. 

Interestingly enough, the supreme court just reversed Chevron v. Natural Resources Defense Council which will make some of the most zany interpretations by federal agencies reviewable and reversible by the judiciary and their own interpretation of the law.  It will be interesting to see if it helps with the many inconsistencies that currently exist which the government constantly uses to get around a lame duck Congress..

By a vote of 6-3, the justices overruled their landmark 1984 decision in Chevron v. Natural Resources Defense Council, which gave rise to the doctrine known as the Chevron doctrine. Under that doctrine, if Congress has not directly addressed the question at the center of a dispute, a court was required to uphold the agency’s interpretation of the statute as long as it was reasonable. But in a 35-page ruling by Chief Justice John Roberts, the justices rejected that doctrine, calling it “fundamentally misguided.”

[Phosphorus32]

STJoe, it was the Treasury Department, as you found, but more specifically the ATF (aka, BATFE), which is a Bureau within the cabinet-level Treasury Department. The “permanent” date in July was probably after a comment period was closed, but I didn’t dig into it that far.


It’s definitely good, imo, that the framers set up checks and balances between the three federal branches. It often leads to a messy paralysis (especially when the two chambers of Congress and the presidency are split) but that beats government over-reach.

The 1989 reinterpretation of the 1968 GCA “sporting use” definition was very much politically driven. The Stockton, CA shooting (1/17/1989) that led to the CA AWB and the federal actions by Bush Sr. involved the use of an SA AKM (Chinese Type 56S), so there was that hot button emotionally driven reaction to “do something” even if the “something” was as ineffective as it was encroaching on 2A rights. They acknowledged at the time that the imports of banned weapons could have been only as much as 113,732 vs. ~750,000 similar weapons (semiautomatic rifles such as the AR) expected to be manufactured domestically in 1989, so barely a dent. They also acknowledged that the ban would likely lead to an increase in domestic production to meet the demand, basic economics of capitalism, so even less of an impact on total numbers of “scary” rifles domestically made or imported, but they did it anyway.

[Witchywoman]

Atrocities, Tragedies, & Fiascoes....needs to be abolished, as do a few others. The modern day Allgemeine SS.

[Power Surge]

Some great investigation and theories here. Let me reply to some key things.

The “teaser” add is January 1 1989 saying they “will arrive by February 1” he also states they would be ready for sale March 1.

Unfortunately the ad is referring to the new upcoming Paratrooper commercial models that were about to flood the US market. Not the Type 84.

Also the Type 84 designation did away with “ Assault Carbine “ linking it to the ban.

There is zero evidence of Navy Arms ever referring to this rifle as the Type 84. We don't know who coined that name, but it wasn't them.

With them being made out of pre existing existing guns the serial numbers are all over the place unlike the polyteck Hunter, the only way to firm this up is a Roll call with members and old posts. It’s a fun search and I’m enjoying it . Thanks Joe

Nobody knows for sure how many of these were made, or sold. I can tell you I have 15 in the Commercial Type 84 database (including mine). I would personally speculate not many were made. Also keep in mind, that many Navy Arms models were made HERE in the US by Navy Arms. Not overseas in China. That would lead to a smaller production number as well I would believe. I don't know if the number is as little as 100, but I would speculate at the MAX, no more than 500.

Also note, as far as the "ban" theory goes, there were plenty of SKS-30s and Sporters being sold at the same time.

My personal feeling is that Navy Arms designed and produced the the SKS Assault Rifle not knowing that new production AK mag version rifles were soon being shipped to the US. And once the SKS-30 and Sporters were being sold by everyone else, it wasn't cost effective for Navy Arms to hand make the Type 84 Assault Rifle and their unique magazines anymore.