Is this M21 carbine a former Ghost gun?

[Boris Badinov]

Thread title says it all:

[Phosphorus32]

What prompts you to ask? The “M21 NA” guns are rare and, to my knowledge, have not been definitively dated. Up to five digits after the NA have been observed and this appears to have 4 or 5 digits, although it’s hard to say with the blocking of the last digit(s).

[Boris Badinov]

This carbine popped up on the other forum.

It has an early Century import stamp on the barrel.

Which led me the idea that it's a repurposed  Ghost carbine that never made it to Indo-China.

Someone over there is suggesting  that the indexing number pair on the barrel and receiver are Nitro Proofs whic definitively place the date of manufacture to post 1964

[Phosphorus32]

Someone over there is suggesting  that the indexing number pair on the barrel and receiver are Nitro Proofs which definitively place the date of manufacture to post 1964

Well that’s a new bit of information 

[running-man]

Looks like a NA 73727 S/N to me (why even both trying to black out the S/N when you do a poor job of it?).  Jives well with the other two in my files:




The 35 barrel match # is not like the font used on anything pre '70 that I've ever seen.  If the gun was rebuilt from any type of original /26\ or ghost long lugged gun, it was well scrubbed and likely rebarreled with a used barrel from another gun. 

[Bacarnal]

??  Let's see, long barrel lug, early sights, early serif numbers...that makes this a post '64 weapon?  I was just reading the serial progression on the SKS guide and I'm not inclined to believe that.  I think the case for the barrel and indexing numbers corresponding with degrees machined is a much easier to accept idea. 

Assuming that the blacked out area on the serial contains only two more digits and the M21 N A looking to be after the fact application, I'd agree with your supposition and knowledge, Boris.  But being new to this area, I'd like to hear more from the more learned ones out there than myself.  Short statement,  sounds good but I don't know enough .

[Boris Badinov]

I've aksed the owner of the rifle in question to post more photos of the serial numbers and of the underside of the receiver.

RM--
Do you 70k carbines above have QC proofs on the underside of the receiver? Are the stock serials in small or large font numbers?

[running-man]

??  Let's see, long barrel lug, early sights, early serif numbers...that makes this a post '64 weapon?  I was just reading the serial progression on the SKS guide and I'm not inclined to believe that.  I think the case for the barrel and indexing numbers corresponding with degrees machined is a much easier to accept idea. 

Assuming that the blacked out area on the serial contains only two more digits and the M21 N A looking to be after the fact application, I'd agree with your supposition and knowledge, Boris.  But being new to this area, I'd like to hear more from the more learned ones out there than myself.  Short statement,  sounds good but I don't know enough .

To clear up, this is what (I think Boris) is implying:
This gun was a ghost gun originally S/N 737XX.  The Chinese took the gun and made it into a M21 variant by stamping the "M21 NA" text in front of the original S/N.  Certain features (long lug, early rear sight leaf, font) are generally correct for it being a ghost gun.

What I say is: the 35 on the receiver in the barrel/receiver match number pair has incorrect font.  The 5 is obviously restamped, maybe over an original 5, maybe over some other number and they forced this receiver to fit the barrel using some method to make the indexing work out.  The barrel 35 looks era correct in my opinion. 

Boris, I only have a few 70k ghosts in my records and of the few I have none have images of undersides to see QC proofs.  They should, however, be generally consistent with other ghosts like this very nice 12.7k example:








Stock font on all ghosts is the original early narrow font, .1 wide, .2 tall. 


I think it's long been assumed that M21 NAs were repurposed guns that were restored (possibly scrubbed, though perhaps you are onto something with the S/Ns all looking eerily similar to 70k ghosts) to add additional lifespan to the guns. 

[Boris Badinov]

What I say is: the 35 on the receiver in the barrel/receiver match number pair has incorrect font.  The 5 is obviously restamped, maybe over an original 5, maybe over some other number and they forced this receiver to fit the barrel using some method to make the indexing work out.  The barrel 35 looks era correct in my opinion. 

rm-
I am intrigued by this notion that a difference in the indexing fonts is a possible indication of re-barrelling. I have witnessed this difference in indexing fonts on other carbines, but had never considered the font difference from the same perspective that we assess the stamped serial fonts. My thought process being that the barrel and receiver indexing stamps could be done en masse in separate areas of a production facility, whereas serial stamping seems more likely to be done at the same time once the rifle is completed.

Do you think this idea would also apply to the Soviet carbines?

[Bacarnal]

RM, sorry I was being tongue in cheek with the idea that the of the weapon being presented was a post '64 and agreeing with Boris.  Though my Ghost is a 17K, it has all of the Sino Soviet proofs that Boris is asking about.  Also, my indexing marks use a different size stamp BUT they are consistent, unlike the ones on the M21, so your thoughts that it was a re-build and repurposed weapon seem extremely sound .

[Larry D.]

You guys are waaaaay beyond me here.

Great posts though. Lots of terrific information here, even if I don't really grasp most of it.

[Boris Badinov]

Update:

The receiver in question does not bear any of the many QC stamps seen on the Ghost Rifles.

This would seem to contradict my assumption that it was originally a Ghost rifle, but it does not entirely exclude the possibility.

Also, of interest (at least to me) the import stamp is the early  "ST. A VT" import stamp associated with the ME/IC guns.