Minty 1951 Refurb. All matching transitional carbine.

[Boris Badinov]

Thats a nice score and you did NOT pay too much ! Don't you live in Ca. ? Maybe im wrong  but what a beautiful example of an American possessed SkS with a Hard Russian accent I say non referb.

We have not moved back to Cali (yet). Plans to move keep getting pushed. Colorado, Oregon are possible too. With New Mexico in a very distant fourth place.
[Just in case, for the forseeable future, I'm no longer buying handguns with capacity over 10 rounds ]

I doubt we'll ever know for certain -- when I picked it up I thought I was getting a unique fefurb shooter. I still plan to get it zeroed soon, but I doubt I'll get this one out to the range after that.

[Boris Badinov]

Rm-
I think the crown is also blued and not painted. Does the data suggest that this is also a potential characteristic of original manufacture?

We have company over for most of the day, so I can't get the rifle out to take better photos until later. 

[martin08]

Here are some pics for comparison to one I consider to be non-refurb.

Biggest difference I can see is the gold bayonet, which is still staked.

[Boris Badinov]

Great looking 1951.

I've never understood how the staking marks indicate original vs. Refurb.

[martin08]

Great looking 1951.

I've never understood how the staking marks indicate original vs. Refurb.

The bayonet has either been removed from the lug at some point in time, or it hasn't been removed.   

[Boris Badinov]

But does removal obviate refurbishment or replacement of the bayonet. Or does it just mean t that it if as been removed at some point in its history?

[martin08]

Some folks have removed the bayonets from non-refurbs, for sure.  Can't supervise them all!

[running-man]

rm-
Very ineteresting points you raise! Thanks.



Are blued bayos original issue? I was under the impression that they were replacements just like the bbq blades, No?

Thanks, again.

When do we get a peek at the database?

EDIT: Yes. It's non-chrome plated.

That one has always bothered me.  I think most collectors would say that Russian blued blade bayos are indicators of some type of replacement or refurbishment.  There's no concrete proof of this though.  For a bayo that is so easily swapped and typically not serialized, I often give a pass on this feature when I'm trying to wrap my head around whether a gun belongs in the as-issued category in the database. 

Others say that the golden bayos (some type of chromate coating) are the true original bayos because so many are found on really nice looking guns with all other as-issued features.  Again, no concrete proof of this but more concerning in my mind is that you typically don't see golden bayos on refurb marked examples...why is this?.  Did the Russians chemically or mechanically strip each and every bayo at refurb to remove this coating?  Did the Russians, when lightly refurbishing almost pristine guns simply toss a coat of finish on the stock and also coat originally bare bayos?   

As for the database, it's right here on my hard drive (and backed up in a couple places)  What do you want to see?

[running-man]

Boris- a very nice purchase, great condition. I always take out mine when I see somebody with a new posting and compare. Yours is by far better than mine. Mine does have hardwood stock and date, etc. but I had to lightly sand and refinish. Matching S/Ns. And of course being in Canada the magazine does not match. My question which may take running man to answer is that the arrow in the tula star is different than my 51. Mine has more shaft than yours. This may have been a change made in 51??

'51 covers come in many flavors, there is not a single change in the Tula arrow, but a multitude of them.  I had these images posted a long long time ago, but the photobucket fiasco made that post unreadable.  Here they are again (sorry about the large amount of photos), notice the hand stamped arrow of the first '52 in there...they didn't have this process standardized until well into production.  It may be that multiple lines had multiple roll stamps that were each a bit different from each other.  One of these days I'll compared known as-issued gun covers to their S/N's and see if a pattern is present.  I remember looking into that briefly a while back and there seemed to be something going on with the shape of the stars, but I've not looked into it in great detail:

This set of photos is too large to be in the middle of this post.  See: http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=4086.0

[running-man]

Guns like the OP's and M08's example make us think which is awesome.  They also bring uncomfortable questions to the surface such as what exactly constitutes an "as-issued" SKS and the whole question of "non-refubished", "unfired", and "unissued".  Unfortunately the things we don't know sometimes seem to outnumber the things we do.

• Do we know what the significance of a blued bayonet is vs. one in the bright vs. one with a gold chromate coating? Which ones could be considered original equipment and which ones are definite replacements?
• Do unbroken stake marks automatically = as-issued or conversely, do broken marks automatically = refurb?  I've seen stake marks that line up perfectly and look pristine, yet I know they are not because 10 minutes before the bayonet was off the gun for cosmo cleaning.
• Why are the Tula acceptance marks on the right side of most as-issued stocks so worn down such that typically only half the stamp is visible?  Same with certain marks around the crossbolt.  Surely imprinting these stamps wasn't so difficult a step that the inspector only got half a stamp 80% time through 9 years of production.
• Do we know that a reblue automatically = a refurb or is there a conceivable situation where a gun was rejected for finish issues (maybe it didn't get degreased properly) and run through the tank a second time?

I think the OPs gun has many as-issued properties and at the same time I also think it shows definite signs of rebluing, a bayonet swap, and a very light refinish of the stock.  Is it as-issued, perhaps a light refurb?  Is M08's gun a possible light-refurb, a possible non-refurb?  Heck If I know!    They are both darn nice carbines though and the prices should reflect that as it should with all nice carbines.   

 

[Boris Badinov]

• Why are the Tula acceptance marks on the right side of most as-issued stocks so worn down such that typically only half the stamp is visible? 

I ask myself this every time I see that mark!!!

My best guess is that the stamp isn't a finishing stamp. More likely it is a preliminary inspection stamp that is struck prior to final sanding and staining.

[running-man]

It could very well be.  Here's the best example I have in all my photos, a Canadian gun with a very nice stock.  Even with this one, I couldn't say 100% that this stock hasn't been refinished:





I don't know that this is something we're ever going to know.  Might be an enigma forever. 

[Phosphorus32]

It could very well be.  Here's the best example I have in all my photos, a Canadian gun with a very nice stock.  Even with this one, I couldn't say 100% that this stock hasn't been refinished:





I don't know that this is something we're ever going to know.  Might be an enigma forever. 

My first impression of that stock is: if that's not as-issued then as-issued simply doesn't exist. The matte appearance of the stampings, no evidence (at the resolution of the photo) of sanding, bits of flaking shellac.

It'd be nice to know exactly what all of the crossbolt and buttstock markings mean, but that seems unlikely to ever emerge from the basement archives for the OTK at Tula or Izhevsk