Ok i realize this is subjective, but I would like to see the SKS experts on here rank the SKS by collectability/rarity/future appreciation. For the sake of argument lets assume matching number rifles in equal condition. I would guess:
1. North Korea
2. East Germany
3. Albania?
4-99. ?
There are a lot of Chi-com variations to include, most I don't know much about being new to the SKS world. I would think the early Chinese (sino-soviet or ghost) would be more desirable than a later Norinco. I saw a chart for Mosins over on 762x54.net that got me thinking about this.
I'm picking up my ghost tomorrow banana time banana time getting excited.
Now rarity is subjective, do you go off est. numbers built or numbers inside U.S. borders? And do you do it by nation, maker or model?
I'll go off inside U.S. borders :), and it is possible to go rarer than the big 3, thumb1
1. North Korea
2. East Germany
3. NVA
Here are 4 models, each much more difficult to find than the next. At least one will trump the big three models. They hide in plain sight as you will see and I would guess at least two of them would be on a Top 10 Rarity list.
This one is fairly common and the easiest on to find, but a good starter none the less, a Chinese Public Security Forces marked SKS. Only one importer brought them in, KFS in Atlanta Ga. I've heard around two pallets were imported, however many that is. But, compared to the following, this is an everyday Chinese SKS. :o
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/soviet%20sino/Public%20Security/HPIM0094_zpsbe007f80.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/soviet%20sino/Public%20Security/HPIM0094_zpsbe007f80.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/soviet%20sino/Public%20Security/HPIM0079_zps97ceaa34.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/soviet%20sino/Public%20Security/HPIM0079_zps97ceaa34.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/soviet%20sino/Public%20Security/HPIM0069_zps7051589d.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/soviet%20sino/Public%20Security/HPIM0069_zps7051589d.jpg.html)
Then a recent favorite of mine, the Israeli Capture, not a true rare bird, but in this condition, very very uncommon. These can hide as a plain correct serial range rifle or be all dolled up like this one with heavy use and Arabic script.
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Egypt%20capture/SAM_1464_zpsb5ea6368.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Egypt%20capture/SAM_1464_zpsb5ea6368.jpg.html)
And add a variety of a Yugoslavian M59, the "B" series, in contrast, the "C" series is everywhere, but just try and find a "B" series. It was pure dumb luck I found this, even though it sat wide open on a retail online site for several weeks, with the bold style it's a "B" series all in the description. I haven't see one since for sale in over a year, anywhere.
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/m59/m59b/SAM_0858_zps2dd22938.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/m59/m59b/SAM_0858_zps2dd22938.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/m59/m59b/SAM_0854_zpsd3c0df4c.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/m59/m59b/SAM_0854_zpsd3c0df4c.jpg.html)
Now this is the rare one, a Soviet-Sino. Est. production 1999 made based off serial numbers, 8 are known and documented. Note Russian Tula star and Norinco import stamp. There is mine and one other owned on the board, so this leave 6 others known. This is the one that I think knocks the big three(NK, NVA and EG) down a notch, simply due to extreme rarity.
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/soviet%20sino/HPIM0208_zps45210298.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/soviet%20sino/HPIM0208_zps45210298.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/soviet%20sino/HPIM0205_zps81b2e2ad.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/soviet%20sino/HPIM0205_zps81b2e2ad.jpg.html)
Then there are such models I'd put in a Top 10 such as:
a true 1949 Russian
No-date marked Romanian SKS drool2
Long barreled Yugoslavian M59 drool2
I guess you could chunk in the M21 and bringback weapons.
Maybe, add in a No date Albanian, I gotta look into this one. :)
There are only 6-8 recorded 6m and 1.5m /26\ guns also. thumb1 chances are higher at finding them compared to the Soviet Sino though as they also hide in plain sight likely changing hands several times without notice of its rarity.
'49 Russian, refurbed or otherwise, needs to be tucked in there somewhere. I don't think they're much more plentiful than Viets. Further down that list but still rightfully on it should be a transitional '50 Russian with all early features. '53 Izhevsk originals...
Oops I see that drool2 mentioned the '49 already. Way to be on top of things Monkey!
I have an insane urge to own a North Korean and would do vile things both to get one, and to the gun itself. I can't believe one just sold for $700 on GB.
We'd have to get numbers of every make, year, bringback model, etc to get an real accurate list.
Most will say the "big 3" guns are the rarest. By make, yes, that is if the NVA's aren't Chinese and the EG's aren't Russian. That would leave the NK's as the true holy grail.
But then we have Romanian Nam' bringbacks, which are rare. We have Chinese bringbacks. We have Israeli Capture guns, earliest imports and the later more common, but still uncommon ones. We have M59's, different rarer year Albanians & Chicoms, different factories, etc.
We'd need a list of recorded numbers of every single "kind" for lack of a better term, and go from there, for the sake of rarity.
As for collectability, all personal preference.
It's almost like playing the stock market. Will Google stock appreciate worth more than Apple stock in 2 years time? It's a gamble at worst, but if you do some real homework, you can make some educated guesses.
I think the big three are a pipe dream for 99% of us collectors that simply don't have $3k to drop when one suddenly appears. Izhevsks are so darn pricey simply because everyone has been programmed to want one. The demand is high and the supply is finite (at least in the US due to the VRA) that they likely always will be pricey.
Some of the other guns people have put up, the Soviet-Sinos, B block Yugo M59s, Albanians, even the Public security guns, those are neat little diamonds in the rough that can be found in unlikely places. They have enough differences from a typical SKS that they are where I concentrate my collecting energies.
I picked up this C block M59 from SOG a while back for $149. It's not rare by any means, but it is less common, in great condition, and is one of my favorites:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Yugo%20M59/IMG_1654_zps69e396a1.jpg~original)
Another is my Clayco M8, likely unfired, still in the box. The lack of the factory bayo (not a bayo delete like on a post 88 gun, simply built w/o a bayo) really makes it pop:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/Clayco_M8/100_0796_zps714bc911.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/Clayco_M8/100_0673_zpsf5ea08b4.jpg~original)
Everyone's going to have their own opinions, but for me instead of searching all my life for the privilege to drop $3k on any of the big three and become a 'real collector', I'm content to enjoy several of the lesser known guns that have unusual qualities, will ilkley appreciate more than a run-of-the-mill SKS, and have some character and soul that pleases me right now. thumb1
And that plays into the OP's comment about "future appreciation". I don't think the Germans & Koreans have much room to appreciate over time. But the quirky, interesting, less publicized but still scarce variants that can be had for 300-500$ have a way higher ceiling for ROI compared to the Trinity.
So the two of you (running-man & Blicero) believe these carbines..."the Soviet-Sinos, B block Yugo M59s, Albanians, even the Public security guns, those are neat little diamonds in the rough that can be found in unlikely places." may one day attract the attention of collectors and increase in value?
Just to satisfy my curiosity where do you see the SKS market in five or ten years...provided we all last that long?!
All of those variations already carry a premium over the run of the mill, and I wont take less the a grand for the lowest serial chicom observed in the US.
I keep watching the local gun shop for a Soviet-Sino. Don't know what I'll do if I find one, but I'm looking!
In ten years, the importation of surplus arms will be illegal. I thoroughly believe that. Our "progressive" society and its comprehensive disdain of firearms will see to that. As such...let's say every SKS will cost exactly twice what we're used to now. That seems like a nice cozy round number.
Quote from: Blicero on February 13, 2015, 01:20:05 AM
In ten years, the importation of surplus arms will be illegal. I thoroughly believe that. Our "progressive" society and its comprehensive disdain of firearms will see to that. As such...let's say every SKS will cost exactly twice what we're used to now. That seems like a nice cozy round number.
Thanks for the reply Blicero, that's just about what I expected to hear. The "disarm America" gang are relentless...to borrow an old saying..."we ain't seen nothin yet". I fully expect things to get nasty one day, I hope I'm wrong.
Quote from: Dannyboy53 on February 13, 2015, 12:57:40 AM
Just to satisfy my curiosity where do you see the SKS market in five or ten years...provided we all last that long?!
Danny, currently as I understand there are few surplus weapons remaining now, with the crap earlier in the Ukrain. Even the Mosins have gone up due to supply issues, as I understand, there are no more Mosin sniper rifles in the supply chain, and now try to find a run of the mill Mosin for a some what decent price.
Soon the demand will greatly exceed the supply and if you want something, it will cost, because it will.come from a private seller, not a surplus weapons dealer.
Quote from: Greasemonkey on February 13, 2015, 02:06:56 AM
Quote from: Dannyboy53 on February 13, 2015, 12:57:40 AM
Just to satisfy my curiosity where do you see the SKS market in five or ten years...provided we all last that long?!
Danny, currently as I understand there are few surplus weapons remaining now, with the crap earlier in the Ukrain. Even the Mosins have gone up due to supply issues, as I understand, there are no more Mosin sniper rifles in the supply chain, and now try to find a run of the mill Mosin for a some what decent price.
Soon the demand will greatly exceed the supply and if you want something, it will cost, because it will.come from a private seller, not a surplus weapons dealer.
Carl I have seen that Mosin increase (at an alarming rate) around here in the past eight to ten months. A friend of mine owns everythingsks.com about 35 miles from here in Judsonia Arkansas. Last year he was selling 9130 round receivers for $99, today they are $195. I have seen them and they are in marvelous condition but...$100 in less than a year! I paid $299 for two of our SKSs and $275 for the third one a year ago, now they are going for about $350 around here and that is low end, some as much as $400 to $450 and that is "plain-Jane nothing special" Chinese carbines! But the last time I checked we can still get 7.72x39 for .21 cpr.
I just want to bring this post back up for a minute....
I noticed most of the mentioned guns here are older military mention. But what about the commercial models? From what I've seen the past few months, the commercial "special" models are going way up in price, and people seem to be paying it.
I have to imagine there were much less commercial models built vs the mass amounts of military. Even though they don't have battle history, they are valuable in their own right.
I know most here won't agree with me, and trust me when I say I love all the old battle worn guns. But if I was going to have 10 SKSs, I would much rather have 10 guns of different an unique configuration, than to have 10 guns that are basically the same gun with different serials and stampings.
I agree with you PS, but the caveat is that the commercial guns are really just glorified bubbas. Some of them, like a simple paratrooper can still be easily made today.
Most obviously aren't being made or imported, and the market has taken the scarcity factor into heavy consideration. This gives them all a nice premium over your typical type 56 that is seen in GB and in the general market.
While not for everyone, I will say that collecting the commercial variants is a pretty good way to diversify things. I don't think anyone is going to bust your chops if that's the direction you want to go. thumb1
Quote from: running-man on May 19, 2015, 11:34:35 PM
I agree with you PS, but the caveat is that the commercial guns are really just glorified bubbas. Some of them, like a simple paratrooper can still be easily made today.
Most obviously aren't being made or imported, and the market has taken the scarcity factor into heavy consideration. This gives them all a nice premium over your typical type 56 that is seen in GB and in the general market.
While not for everyone, I will say that collecting the commercial variants is a pretty good way to diversify things. I don't think anyone is going to bust your chops if that's the direction you want to go. thumb1
I agree. It's really a matter of what excites you. Some guys look at a beat up, worn out, 60s /26\ gun and think what a POS. Other people hold that in their hands think about all the war that gun has seen. That's how I feel about my Yugo. But I do like the idea of all the different configurations of commercial guns.
I look at it this way.... the 60s guns are like 60s cars. They performed, were built strong, and saw action. The commercial guns are like 70s and 80s cars. Built more for show and flash than go, built with less quality and love, and not really used and abused. BUT... just like with cars, time doesn't stand still and you can't go back. SKS's aren't being made anymore, and even though commercial guns didn't see war action, they are still part of history that gets older with every passing year.
Power it seems like all this buying/selling, unavailable, etc, sort of goes in a circle, like clothes in the fashion industry. I agree with your points on the commercial models, an old '58 Edsel is nice but then so is a 2015 whatever!
The new (newer) commercial SKS certainly does hold a place in the scheme of things.
An answer to whether or not their will be a demand, look to the past, the SKS is not the only weapon to be commericalized. There is quite a large collectors niche for these type weapons, just for the simple fact of they are different, or go against the norm. The important thing is to verify it is an actual exporter or importer modified weapon. Like RM said, a Para can be made in a garage, a PU repro scope and mount runs around 100-150 bucks, and not terribly hard to install. Know what to look for, so you can spot a faked or humped commercial.
The commercialization of say, the Lee Enfield. Way back in the day, a company called Golden State Arms, this is what they specialized in, just look up Santa Fe Enfields.
Santa Fe Enfields (http://webpages.uidaho.edu/stratton/SantaFeRifles.htm)
And even M1 Carbines fell to the commercial side, many different variants and calibers exist, some are quite rare today and quite pricey.
Santa Fe M1 Carbine (http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_santafe.html)
Iver Johnson Arms M1 Carbine (http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_ij.html)
There may have been more standard mil config (fill in blank) produced, but how many are actually here and in un-bubbad condition? How many are collectable because of where they been like the IC guns we only have around 50 recorded? Were there more Ms or Ds etc then imported ICs? Thats just one example... its not always just a dif in serial.
I agree with the guys above, but standard config rifles have just as many collectable variations as the commercial guns.
Oh... and I'll stress this again. Monetary value has nothing to do with rarity. Something is not rare simply because it costs more money. Although something deemed as rare can effect value simply because of supply/ demand.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on May 20, 2015, 09:46:55 AM
Oh... and I'll stress this again. Monetary value has nothing to do with rarity. Something is not rare simply because it costs more money. Although something deemed as rare can effect value simply because of supply/ demand.
Oh I completely agree. Value of anything is simply what someone is willing to pay. And if enough people are willing to pay a certain price, then it becomes market value. people are paying more for the commercial guns now, so their market value is going up. Heck, that really applies to all sks's, as even regular nothing special models are going for twice as much as they were a few years back.
Rarity is just how uncommon something is. Something can be rare, but it's only valuable if people want to pay good money for it. For example, a misprinted comics book could be rare and super valuable, but a misprinted newspaper is worth zero.
And please don't think knocking the old military guns...I love them! I'm just commenting on the trend that the commercial models are going up in value...and that means people want them.
Like you said... they all going up. Its not just the commercial guns.