Picked this jewel up over in Idaho this past weekend. Never saw a KSI with intact bayo lug. Looks like the stock was refinished by bubba and the metal needs some tlc but I can not for the life of me make out the Arsenal. Maybe you gents can?
(https://i.ibb.co/1L1gSK4/IMG-6684.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kxj7d0P)
(https://i.ibb.co/FgSyxht/IMG-6687.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pw7Pmr8)
(https://i.ibb.co/P1WbcrD/IMG-6688.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kqDr4Gm)
(https://i.ibb.co/Zm6qn9d/IMG-6689.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WtWmbCn)
(https://i.ibb.co/cwGJs3n/IMG-6690.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3vD1PdZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/6brNyBB/IMG-6692.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gwm6rVV)
(https://i.ibb.co/7JWDSg1/IMG-6693.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ynyCNhQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/RSVDQ3h/IMG-6691.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YWqLfcD)
From what I can make out from your pic I'd say that is an arsenal /6011\. Not very common at all. Trigger housing looks scrubbed and restamped, probable re-furb for export job. How does she shoot?
KSI did import regular SKSs as well as the novelty ones they were more known for and I have seen stocks with a more shiny finish come in from China that way as well.
(https://i.ibb.co/zQWJvy1/297613727.png) (https://ibb.co/NtgSB8X)
Yeah, I'd say /6011\ too:
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T6011.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T6011_P.jpg)
Here are a few I have in my files, the first one is a KSI import too (and intact bayo lug with a spike bayo installed). Likely imported alongside yours.
(https://i.ibb.co/2t3VnKv/7101299-receiver.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/bBB4N4t/7101299-import-stamp.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/x1mz9Qx/7101299-left-front.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/B6vGBg2/7101593-receiver.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/5sVCjrC/7101593-right-rear.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/3yPY1yR/7105105-receiver.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Bj82Rrt/7107345-receiver.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/HBRBpBY/7107456-arsenal-stamp.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/0QvSyc5/7107571-receiver.jpg)
And they are all in the 7 million range. Very Cool. Have not shot her yet. Hopefully this weekend.
All year 71. Appears to be under 8k produced.
Quote from: Greatguns on August 26, 2024, 10:37:16 AM
From what I can make out from your pic I'd say that is an arsenal /6011\. Not very common at all. Trigger housing looks scrubbed and restamped, probable re-furb for export job. How does she shoot?
KSI did import regular SKSs as well as the novelty ones they were more known for and I have seen stocks with a more shiny finish come in from China that way as well.
(https://i.ibb.co/zQWJvy1/297613727.png) (https://ibb.co/NtgSB8X)
Would this be arsenal 106 then? Every firearms arsenal (with the exception of some pure commercial ones..for which 1971 seems too early) will end with a 6 and i have never heard of an arsenal named 016 or 116 while 106 did produce firearms! (They are known for Type-51 TT-33 production)
Quote from: JustaGuy1250 on August 28, 2024, 09:55:52 AM
Would this be arsenal 106 then? Every firearms arsenal (with the exception of some pure commercial ones..for which 1971 seems too early) will end with a 6 and i have never heard of an arsenal named 016 or 116 while 106 did produce firearms! (They are known for Type-51 TT-33 production)
What true arsenal this code went to is unknown. It could easily be a sub-unit of one of the larger ones, but there is no evidence I know of to say that /6011\ belongs to any of the big ones.
There are many triangle arsenal stamps that do not even have a 6 in them, much less at the end:
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T00.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T00_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T08.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T08_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0130a.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0130a_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T135.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T135_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T223.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T223_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0223a.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0223a_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0225.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0225_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0404.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0404_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0405.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0405_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0408.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0408_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0412.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0412_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T6011.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T6011_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T6601.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T6601_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T1.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T1_P.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T3.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T3_P.jpg)
Along with these that are thought to exist but I don't have photo proof that the arsenal stamp is accurate:
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/TD22S.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T22.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0131.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T0159.jpg)
Here is /116\ (seen on '66, '68, & '69 examples):
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T116.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T116_P.jpg)
And some carbines with the /116\ stamp:
(https://i.ibb.co/W3zHvGQ/1103399-receiver.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/kJJCgB3/1301300-receiver.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/LQGwvv4/1400146-receiver.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/mG7p4GF/1403663-receiver.jpg)
Could it be a subset of /106\? Certainly but again I've seen nothing truly tying them together apart from the hypothesis that all /XYZ\ arsenals are subsets of /XZ\ (i.e. /206\, /216\, /256\ are subsets of /26\) which I'm not 100% on board with as I've seen no data yet that corroborates it.
We have beat /016\ vs /416\ to death. There are threads (https://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=1175.msg14134#msg14134) where it's pretty clear that the arsenal stamp is is intended to be a /416\.
Quote from: running-man on August 26, 2024, 11:00:58 AM
Yeah, I'd say /6011\ too:
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T6011.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T6011_P.jpg)
Sorry but this probably isn't 6011 but rather 6617.
For starters, 6011, 6017, or 6611 simply does not exist. Meanwhile 6617 can be easily found on the internet. Construction for 6617 began in 1970 and the secondary (cover) name was Qingxu Mechanical Works. The company still (sorta) exists today - You can even find the linkedin page of one of their managers: https://www.linkedin.com/in/%E6%B1%9F%E9%BE%99-%E9%9F%A9-7b2964127/?locale=en_US&trk=people-guest_people_search-card
Also, if you apply the logic on the "4" in /416\, the second "0" is probably a "6" as well and the last "1" could be a "7" because that's how they stylize it. The eye and counter of numbers are exaggerated while the ascenders/descenders/spurs are minimized.
Quote from: JustaGuy1250 on August 28, 2024, 09:55:52 AM
Every firearms arsenal (with the exception of some pure commercial ones..for which 1971 seems too early) will end with a 6
This is not entirely correct. There are two types of entities Western collectors call "arsenals": State Factory (国营厂) and PLA Arsenal (解放军兵工厂). People tend to confuse them or call everything "arsenal" because they both use a numerical codename - which is wrong. For example, /26\'s official name is State Factory 296 (国营296厂), NOT Arsenal 26 or Arsenal 296.
State Factories that produce any and all military products are established under and governed by the Second (二机部, 1954-1958, later merged into the First), First (一机部, 1958-1960, later split into the Third), Third (三机部, 1960-1963, later split into the Fifth), or Fifth Ministry of Machine Building (五机部, 1963.9-1986.12, best known to the West for establishing a small export company called "Northern Industries Co." in 1980. The Fifth was later reorganized into the Ministry of Ordnance Industry (1982-1988), the predecessor to the larger Norinco Group). For example, the famous serial dating method of "Type XX + first 1/2 digits of serial - 1" was published by the Second Ministry and used by all of their factories (at least for military contracts), but other arsenals had the choice to not adopt it.
PLA Arsenal are, naturally, ran by the military themselves and NOT the government ministries. They have their own naming conventions.
The Fifth Ministry has their own factory naming convention regarding the final digit: 0/1 for bullets, 2/4 for fuses, 3 for cannon shells, 5 for explosives, 6 for small arms, 7 for cannons, 8 for optical devices and 9 for steel. The first one or two digits denote the general location. For example, during the Third Front Movement, 9XXX (or rarely 9XX) means it's a "Small Third Front" factory often located in remote area, as opposed to the "Big Third Front" factory established in larger cities. The State Factories established by other ministries often do NOT follow this trend: State Factories such as 978, 963, 972, 980 all produced SKS rifles and their code did not end with a 6. PLA Arsenals also don't follow this trend at all.
There is a third, lesser used code digit system, P.O. Box. Each State Factory would receive 3 names: Primary Factory Name (3 or 4 digits codename and often an explicit name that states its purpose), Secondary Factory Name (XYZ Mechanical Works, ABC Electro-optics Factory, etc.), and P.O. Box. For example, State Factory 873's secondary name would be Yongguang Electrical Works, and its P.O. Box is Guiyang No.218. Primary names are used internally as government communication, Secondary names are what they told the public, and P.O. Boxes are their mailing address. Similarly, PLA Arsenals would also have their secondary factory names: For example, PLA Arsenal 5311's secondary name is Jiangsu Jinling Machine Manufacturing Factory (Main).
Other ministries such as the Ministry of Metallurgy and Ministry of Postal & Telecommunications also have their own factory codes. So it's possible to see duplicated factory codenames. For example, the Ministry of Metallurgy has a Factory 886 (Jinchuan Metal Works) that mines and refines nickel, while the Fifth Ministry of Machine Building also had a Factory 886 (Anti-Imperialism Machine Works) that makes Type 63-1 stielhandgranate.
Good info BP. thumb1 Sounds like maybe we could move /6011\ into one of the /#?\ slots and it would be more accurate until we got additional data that solidified it.
Quote from: BP4W on October 10, 2024, 12:24:45 AM
This is not entirely correct. There are two types of entities Western collectors call "arsenals": State Factory (国营厂) and PLA Arsenal (解放军兵工厂). People tend to confuse them or call everything "arsenal" because they both use a numerical codename - which is wrong. For example, /26\'s official name is State Factory 296 (国营296厂), NOT Arsenal 26 or Arsenal 296.
Good luck trying to get a community consensus on people saying 'factory' vs 'arsenal'. It's too engrained in 20 years of internet myths and lore. Heck, even our efforts to get people to stop misdating Chinese firearms has borne only limited fruit because the "1956 + millions" culture is so prevalent, viciously defended, and old websites like Yooper's and SKSBoards continue to spew their crap to indoctrinate new redditer generations that are just getting into collecting. We do what we can, but it's like Sisyphus pushing the stone up the mountain...
Quote from: BP4W on October 09, 2024, 11:49:41 PM
Quote from: running-man on August 26, 2024, 11:00:58 AM
Yeah, I'd say /6011\ too:
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T6011.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/arsenal_stamps/T6011_P.jpg)
Sorry but this probably isn't 6011 but rather 6617.
For starters, 6011, 6017, or 6611 simply does not exist. Meanwhile 6617 can be easily found on the internet. Construction for 6617 began in 1970 and the secondary (cover) name was Qingxu Mechanical Works. The company still (sorta) exists today - You can even find the linkedin page of one of their managers: https://www.linkedin.com/in/%E6%B1%9F%E9%BE%99-%E9%9F%A9-7b2964127/?locale=en_US&trk=people-guest_people_search-card
Also, if you apply the logic on the "4" in /416\, the second "0" is probably a "6" as well and the last "1" could be a "7" because that's how they stylize it. The eye and counter of numbers are exaggerated while the ascenders/descenders/spurs are minimized.
I have to disagree with you on the /6617\ and /416\ thought. The triangle 0 in the /6011\ is not consistent with the 4 in the /416\, but it IS consistent with the 0 in other arsenal/factory stampings.
Also, while it is possible the 1 could be a 7, there are no other examples of 7 being used in any arsenal/factory stampings. Whereas, there ARE other examples of a 1 having an angled top portion similar to /116\.
In conclusion, I think the consensus will stick with /6011\ until better evidence is given.
For military arms manufacture the words arsenal and factory are interchangeable.
For English speakers, an arsenal is a factory where arms are made. The distinction is no distinction at all.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on October 10, 2024, 11:41:10 AM
For military arms manufacture the words arsenal and factory are interchangeable.
For English speakers, an arsenal is a factory where arms are made. The distinction is no distinction at all.
Under the Chinese system, State Factory can produce various things, military or not. In fact, most State Factories just make mundane, everyday things like steel pipes, tractors, and televisions.
Apart from historic holdovers, the term "Arsenal" is exclusive to the PLA-owned factories in Communist China, whereas State Factories are owned by the CCP. And yes, these two are seperate entities and for decades they keep their properties independent. That's another common misconception.
This post discusses terminologies in the Chinese historic context, so the distinction is extremely important.
Quote from: running-man on October 10, 2024, 10:23:52 AM
Good luck trying to get a community consensus on people saying 'factory' vs 'arsenal'. It's too engrained in 20 years of internet myths and lore. Heck, even our efforts to get people to stop misdating Chinese firearms has borne only limited fruit because the "1956 + millions" culture is so prevalent, viciously defended, and old websites like Yooper's and SKSBoards continue to spew their crap to indoctrinate new redditer generations that are just getting into collecting. We do what we can, but it's like Sisyphus pushing the stone up the mountain...
Haha yeah. I try my best on Reddit to correct people that treat Yooper and other stuff (like that certain youtuber that reads off this site but often had misinformation here and there) as gospel. Other famous myths include 公安 = Public Security = Chinese Gestapo... Despite the term "public security" is synonymous with your average beater cop, and when used in a historical context likely refers to the PAP, which used to be under the Ministry of Public Security (later seperated). Plus, there's no point for a "secret police force" to use a limited capacity rifle 30 years out of date, when they have access to a wide array of assault rifles, SMGs, and pistols. Or how people think you can't count the millionth digit because you "don't know which year is which" - but it in fact is easy to tell because each factory scales up or down their serial lengths based on the projected production in that year. For example there are 5 digit serials for flare guns (year + 4 place serial), something you don't expect to be made millions per year. Or my biggest pet peeve, Norinco.
...and I went off in another tangent, haha.
Quote from: BP4W on October 11, 2024, 02:07:30 AM
...and I went off in another tangent, haha.
Laugh, breathe deeply! That's what I usually do when I see horsetrash like that.
We've tried since before 2014 to correct some of the wrongs you mention, but the myths still persist to today. One day maybe, one day. dntknw1