Something I have observed over time and have been curious about since the beginning of my journey through the SKS rifle realm has been the different sight leaf symbols at the bottom.
We all know the different countries marks, Romanian has the I, Albania has a D, Korea has a scribble and on and on & on.
But we don't know why China has 4 different marks. (Unless I'm way behind and missed a discussion on these already)
П
3
III
D
What i'm thinking is that the D's tend to be on guns that are meant for a specific purpose, designation to a certain unit, or possibly delivery as aid to a small country or group.
Of course this is all based on what I've observed only & I could be way off base here.
But there's a very distinct pattern I tend to see..
DP's and DB's have the D sight leaf.
DP:
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg8_zpsb3842370.jpg)
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg7_zps3976e962.jpg)
Security Forces also rock the D
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg5_zpsa92275eb.jpg)
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg4_zps224d6dde.jpg)
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg6_zpsc3979d09.jpg)
These below are what actually made me curious about the sight leafs. I see these Chicoms of random factories with a battle patina, that always tend to have a D sight leaf, and never have Norinco Export marks meaning they could have came from somewhere else. Delivery? Designated?
Very worn oddball factory gun
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg2_zpsde7d24d9.jpg)
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg3_zpsce50f9de.jpg)
Another worn oddball factory gun
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg10_zpsf292beb3.jpg)
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg9_zpscf58c66f.jpg)
And I tend to see Many fitting the same description ^^ but most are in worse shape like the first one.
The early M21's sent to Vietnam also have D's.
Early M21
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg1_zps0466f674.jpg)
Another Early M21 (Thanks Padams!)
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg2_zps158f01e9.jpg)
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg1_zps70bdd261.jpg)
The Cyrillic "U" we tend to see on the earlier to mid Jianshe guns, and were obviously military and military aid.
When you begin to look at Chicoms with 3's, they never have battle patina, if anything, bubba-patina (lol) and more than likely have Norinco Export marks.
I believe the 3's to have been designated mainly for export for civilian use.
The III's we start to see later on by Jianshe were exported here from Norinco from all the examples I've seen, and have also been seen on bring backs & pictures from in the field. Such as late M21's found in Afghanistan & Loose_Cannon's Iraqi bring back.
III's are a bit of a mystery to me, unless they were just, export tooooo anywhere?
Anyways, like I stated earlier, this was mainly about my curiosity with the D's anyways, which we tend to see a pattern with. Keep an eye out and you'll start to notice the same!!
Just a thought, "IF" the rear sight mark designates it's use, what if it's purpose was so an open crate of rifles could be easily identified. If your walking around a warehouse with multiple open crates packed of weapons, the rear sight is in plain view, say a rouge country ordered a crate or 10, oh look, a crate full of "D" rear sights, ship it, or, the Americans need more, oh look, a 100 crates full of "3"s, ship'em all, take them out a whole new door.
And the poor guy ain't got to pick every rifle up and check it's numbers or other marks, it's already marked, because what's the first thing seen when one looks in a crate full of rifles?
Again, just a thought, I'll go away now rofl
Hey great thinkin! thumb1 more support for the hypothesis ;) Just an easier way to ship "These" rifles rather than looking at a serial range.
It could be…I would have thought there'd be paperwork associated with them so they don't even have to break open a crate to see what's inside.
I'll start compiling the data from the survey on the battle sight settings. Those are easy to fill out in the survey and should be very consistent…
I've always thought it was a П->D->3->III progression rather than a D goes to this particular rifle, 3 goes to this one, III to that one. It could very well be though. Now that we have a better handle on the non-/26\ dating, we can really dig down into the details by production year and arsenal and see what kind of patterns emerge….
Good thread Mitch, you get an attaboy for this one for certain! thumb1 chuckles1
Thanks RM! :)
I don't think it was a specific order.. If so, why is there a D leaf on a 23+55 era gun, when sitting in my safe at home I have a 3 leaf on a 17+55 era gun?
And if that were to change the order so D would come after 3 instead of before it... Then why do the early M21's have the D's? :-\
See what I'm sayin? I think the Chinese were just.. Organized.
Check your survey, see what we find. But remember, if most don't have pics, you can't see that battle patina like I'm talking about. I see it all too often on oddball factories with the D leaf.
Good questions to ask for certain. One caveat I'll toss in before we get too far, remember that the rear sight leaf is a ridiculously easy component to replace. Maybe not as easy as a gas tube or receiver cover, but certainly easier than a stock. I have my favorite Alby truck gun that has a Russian П sight on it. Patina looks perfect on it, it certainly fits with the gun but it's an obvious field replacement part (Trigger group is from a Russian gun as well). I was confused as hell when I first got the gun back in 2003, but with all the replacement stuff on the Sino-banians and our understanding of the Russian sneaks, it makes total sense now.
The condition observation you've made with the rectangle and 'oddball' arsenals is pretty interesting. I've got a bunch of photos I've squirreled away from GB listings…there very well may be a correlation there. I certainly hand't really paid attention to it. Good catch though! thumb1
Ok, curiosity question, the "D", the trend is logical, say internal use or "loyal" Chinese supporters maybe. Makes since, Albania having a "D", they were loyal to China, as were the Public Security Force and ones sent to Vietnam.
QuoteSee what I'm sayin? I think the Chinese were just.. Organized.
But, just for giggles, both my Mak 90s rear sight blades are "D" marked. I know, bla, bla bat1, it's a frickin Ak GM bat1, apple to oranges, just remember, some of the same factories that were producing the Ak, also produced alot of these SKSs at the same time. I mean they are after all both "Type 56s" Why would one models rifle "D" mark possibly designate something different than another rifle "D" mark in the same spot. "IF" they were this organized, then the marks in theory should mean the same regardless of the model weapon.
It's more of a curiosity question.
Quote from: running-man on December 31, 2014, 01:34:43 PM
Good questions to ask for certain. One caveat I'll toss in before we get too far, remember that the rear sight leaf is a ridiculously easy component to replace. Maybe not as easy as a gas tube or receiver cover, but certainly easier than a stock. I have my favorite Alby truck gun that has a Russian П sight on it. Patina looks perfect on it, it certainly fits with the gun but it's an obvious field replacement part (Trigger group is from a Russian gun as well). I was confused as hell when I first got the gun back in 2003, but with all the replacement stuff on the Sino-banians and our understanding of the Russian sneaks, it makes total sense now.
The condition observation you've made with the rectangle and 'oddball' arsenals is pretty interesting. I've got a bunch of photos I've squirreled away from GB listings…there very well may be a correlation there. I certainly hand't really paid attention to it. Good catch though! thumb1
They absolutly could be replaced. No doubt about that. Heck, I recently saw a DB (or DP) with a 3 instead of a D (cant remember where).. But every other I've seen has a D.
When you see a dozen or more of the non jianshe factories, with similar battle patina on the metal and worn stocks to match, most of which don't come from Norinco exporting, all sporting the D's, it makes you question it; especially when you have other "special" Chinese guns like the early M21's, security forces, DB's, & DP's also sporting the D.. It makes you question it even more!!
But you know where I'm coming from.
Quote from: Greasemonkey on December 31, 2014, 01:37:06 PM
Ok, curiosity question, the "D", the trend is logical, say internal use or "loyal" Chinese supporters maybe. Makes since, Albania having a "D", they were loyal to China, as were the Public Security Force and ones sent to Vietnam.
But, just for giggles, both my Mak 90s rear sight blades are "D" marked. I know, bla, bla bat1, it's a frickin Ak GM bat1, apple to oranges, just remember, some of the same factories that were producing the Ak, also produced alot of these SKSs at the same time. I mean they are after all both "Type 56s" Why would one models rifle "D" mark possibly designate something different than another rifle "D" mark in the same spot.
It's more of a curiosity question.
That's a good question.
Remember though, it's a slightly different story when it comes to civi AK's. The Chinese weren't giving us surplus AK's that did time so there's really nopattern to observe. They were producing the civic AK's from new and new/old stock spare AK material. I can see them using multiple sight leafs on the civi AK's sent here. My Poly had a D too. Seems as though most Chinese civi AK's do. No idea man, all I know is I see what I see with these D SKS's, it's a pretty noticable pattern. Not so much with the AK's.
Here's a Polytech just like mine was, but has the cyrillic.
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg1_zps7d1f187b.jpg)
My Security Forces has a III stamped sight, and my /636\ has a П rear sight. I wanted to see if your trend was correct, guess mine are non-conformist, replaced, or?
Not all non-jianshe have D's.. Just mainly the ones that tend to look as if they've done some serious time.. So as for your /636\, that could pretty much have anything.
Your security forces however, no idea. Maybe most were III's? Maybe the few D's I've seen were replaced? Maybe yours was? Maybe it's completely random..? Dunno
All Jianshe guns to 1970 has the n, the 1978/79 23 and 24m had the 3..... not the III. This includes my Iraqi which has a 3. You got those two backwards. Any D found on a sub 70 jianshe is a replacement, unless its an early m21.
But yes.... the early m21 was found in Nam prior to 1970, so its a Jianshe rifle. They sport the D which supports Worms theory.
Thanks for the correction. woopsie!
Quote from: Worm on December 31, 2014, 01:19:54 PM
Thanks RM! :)
I don't think it was a specific order.. If so, why is there a D leaf on a 23+55 era gun, when sitting in my safe at home I have a 3 leaf on a 17+55 era gun?
And if that were to change the order so D would come after 3 instead of before it... Then why do the early M21's have the D's? :-\
See what I'm sayin? I think the Chinese were just.. Organized.
Check your survey, see what we find. But remember, if most don't have pics, you can't see that battle patina like I'm talking about. I see it all too often on oddball factories with the D leaf.
I suspect that the early rifles were all the military version, and perhaps a little later, this sight ID system came into place as sks "policy" became more codified. At any rate, it'll be real interesting to see what a statistical analysis shows. :)
Brent
Love threads that give me an excuse to dig through the safe thumb1
My /016\ Security Forces Has a 3 marked sight ( and oddly enough has been EP'd to match the gun, can't say I've seen that alot on any of my chinese)
My only Norinco stamped is a [0410] cut down "paratrooper". It also has a 3 sight leaf.
My LGS has a DB that has a D marked sight leaf.
Brent, I agree.
Hippie, I too have an /016\, 3 on the sight leaf. Thanks for another DB to add to the D list! See what I mean? pretty consistent.
Now I'm confuseed on whether the 23/24m has a 3 or a III.... ???
Mary's [0306] 210079X gun has a "3" on the rear sight. The rear sight base is cast and the sight leaf appears shiney & new. It gives the overall impression (compared to the rest of the carbine) as being a replacement. Our two /26\ guns have the П and pretty much match the carbines as to patina.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 31, 2014, 11:53:58 PM
Now I'm confuseed on whether the 23/24m has a 3 or a III.... ???
They III's bro! I just think you have too many SKS's and it boggles your brain! rofl2
Quote from: Dannyboy53 on January 01, 2015, 01:22:37 AM
Mary's [0306] 210079X gun has a "3" on the rear sight. The rear sight base is cast and the sight leaf appears shiney & new. It gives the overall impression (compared to the rest of the carbine) as being a replacement. Our two /26\ guns have the П and pretty much match the carbines as to patina.
Danny, the [0306] I had also had a 3. Whether or not yours had a replacement rear sight, 3 would probably be correct thumb1
Quote from: Worm on January 01, 2015, 01:52:43 AMDanny, the [0306] I had also had a 3. Whether or not yours had a replacement rear sight, 3 would probably be correct thumb1
That's what I was wondering Worm, thanks!
9m and 10m cyrillic U
23m III ( chuckles1 LC)
/206\ D
/906\ D
DB....well, you tell me...its a 3 though. Despite the photo glare, the bluing, patina and general grime makes it seem original and consistent with the rest of the sloppily built thing that it is.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2306.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2306.jpg.html)
Thanks Justin thumb1 That's the DB I was talking about that had the 3! lol I knew I had seen it here just couldn't remember from who or where.
Two questions, does your 206 & 906 have any heavy or obvious battle wear? And are either of them exported from Norinco?
Quote from: Worm on January 01, 2015, 10:21:49 AM
Thanks Justin thumb1 That's the DB I was talking about that had the 3! lol I knew I had seen it here just couldn't remember from who or where.
Two questions, does your 206 & 906 have any heavy or obvious battle wear? And are either of them exported from Norinco?
The /206\ only had moderate wear, but I bought it used in an ATI folder...so someone had it and could have loved it a lil bit. The /906\ was new....they are both Norinco exports.
Thanks Justin. Who knows, I may be way off base here :(
It is certainly a facet worth discussion. Perhaps the only way to confirm leaf lineage is if it is serialed to the gun. Of the ones I listed, they are all serialed to the gun, with the possible exception of the non legible number on the 9m. I cannot fathom someone going to the trouble of reserialing a replacement leaf...who knows though.
I cleaned the heck out of the DB and double checked in bright light and GUESS WHAT?! :o
The DB leaf IS serialed to the gun...so that goofy leaf is original! It has the nicest penmanship I have ever seen on an SKS. It is so nice I had do look very closely to see that it isn't actually stamped on there. 8)
Here's some info from my observed photos:
П:
Soviet-Sino
Ghost
/26\ six-digit, 2-3, mil
/26\ letter prefix
/26\ 6 mil - '1.5' mil
[0221] 3.0 mil
/636\ 1.4 mil (2 different examples), 1.7 mil
III:
/26\ 23 mil, 24 mil
3:
<0203> 24 mil
DP 2.5 mil, 24 mil
(974) 23 mil
(9696) 1.3 mil
[0129] 240k
[0221] 25 mil
/016\ 1.7 mil (Public Security Gun), 18 mil, 24 mil, 27 mil, 29 mil
/106\ 23 mil
/0130\ 2.2 mil
/156\ 1.5 mil
/0223a\ 21 mil, 22 mil, 25 mil
/316\ 2.3 mil
/0408\ 24 mil, 25 mil
/636\ 20 mil, 21 mil, 22 mil
/906\ 1.6 mil
D:
<0203> 220 mil (may be a replacement)
M21 'NO'
M21 No
[0134] 23 mil
[0138] '70' (stamped receivers)
[0141] '73'
[0224] 21 mil
/36\ 1.8 mil
/216\ 1.5 mil, 18 mil
/306\ 1.5 mil
/526\ 1.6 mil
/906\ 1.7 mil (may be a replacement)
It's way more consistent arsenal to arsenal than I would have thought.....
You ARE going to have outfliers... I have personally built/swapped several rear sights on multiple guns, and Im sure the Chinese were capable of installing any of the variations on any rifle especially in later years. Everything from rebuilt /26\ guns sporting a non П to other arsenals that could have received left over parts from Jianshe.
In addition, Justins leaf could have been taken off and the sliders from an AK installed at and point. thumb1 The slider is the only component that dont jive.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on January 01, 2015, 07:58:37 PM
You ARE going to have outfliers... I have personally built/swapped several rear sights on multiple guns, and Im sure the Chinese were capable of installing any of the variations on any rifle especially in later years. Everything from rebuilt /26\ guns sporting a non П to other arsenals that could have received left over parts from Jianshe.
Right, there's certainly no smoking gun here. I was honestly expecting to see arsenals strewn about the entire spectrum, but that's really not necessarily the case. It could be my small sample size though. :(
/636\, [0221], and <0203> are about the only crossovers I've been able to find and I think the [0221] is suspect.
The IIIs are pretty rock solid. They go hand in hand with the special takedown levers, takedown reliefs in the stocks, and phenolic handguards. Those 23 and 24 mils from 1978/1979 are special...especially when compared to others from the same time period which generally sport a "3" except for a couple 21 & 23 mil outliers.
The П's seem pretty solid too. The /636\'s are consistent up to the 1.7 mil examples I have..then they consistently jump to 3's at 20 mil.
The D's are the ones that are interesting....a few outliers, but they generally exist in the 1970-1973 timeframe. VN war aid materials?
Wow, lot to soak in here.
RM, I was thinking the same as for the D's maybe being ad to Nam.. But then why have D's for Security force guns? Unless they were "made" security force guns later on?
Jeesh I just don't know anymore. What have I started. :-\
The /636\ having the n for only two years after jianshe stopped production is a good indicator of using up leftovers. thumb1
Look closer at the DB leaf pic of mine.
There is a lot more off base than just the slider buttons. First off, the notch is a V rather than the standard slit on a regular leaf. Secondly...look at the graduation notches on the sides, there is only one notch per position...so only one side locks in, which causes quite a bit of wiggle. They also are not uniform in depth...nor are the indicator notches in the top of the leaf, the numbers are haphazardly stamped. This thing was hand made from a blank.
The gas block and particularly the battle position is a mess...possibly to do with the wiggly nature of the way the leaf is notched. I will try to post some pics tomorrow of the serial on the underside...I am thinking smearing some talc into it might make it visible...as well as better close ups of its odd nature.
I suspect the V notch would be necessary as you attempt to walk up the sight from side to side...the angle with a slit might make it impossible to see through after even one shot once it goes crooked from recoil. The wide view of the V notch could 'make up' for this design flaw.
It may be a POS....but she sure is unique. I literally don't trust the irons farther than I can throw the rifle. Luckily, a crappy RC mount of mine fits it snug as a bug...so it probably will be scoped for shooting....if I can bring up the courage to shoot it. :-\
You're right, that thing is unique. Interesting. Can't think of why it would be different unless it was just a different process for that particular factory at the time.. dunno
I wonder if it was a prototype for a new factory testing out their casting process...as it does appear to be primarily cast on a number of the parts, the machining of the casting is quite rough. One might expect somewhat of a unique serial if it were something new...I suspect this was from a run of similarly made guns though.
I also have been thinking...could these be from an armorer's school? You do have to teach folk how to build these things, maybe this was made on Monday morning after Chinese New Year by a student? rofl A DP I recently saw was of similar quality...but IIRC the leaf was a normal 3 type.
It seems odd that it would be hand made, when the normal leaves are obviously pretty uniform, aside from the symbol used on them. Perhaps there was a shortage of leaves, and they had to maintain a quota or face a firing squad. Maybe these were so shoddily made so that they might have a chance if their own rifles were used on them by a firing squad for not keeping up with their quota? :o
Perhaps it was a pet project of an armorer with OCD who just had to figure out how to make this thing shoot straight...and this was what he came up with? nailbite1
We likely will never know, but I will be keeping my eyes peeled for more of these. I am dying to know if this is only a one off, or if there was a short run done like this.
More than likely just a short run, just like the bulged stock Ferrells on a short run of 9 Mills and plenty other examples.
But, who the hell knows.
I hadn't noticed the number of notches.... its just weird. No tellin.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on January 02, 2015, 08:35:10 PM
I hadn't noticed the number of notches.... its just weird. No tellin.
The thing is, they are offset from each other on the two sides, not lining up like the notches on a std leaf do. Can the slider actually engage a single notch on either side? I know there are spring loaded buttons on both sides of the slider, but I admit I've never actually pulled one totally apart to see what make them tick...
Quote from: running-man on January 03, 2015, 12:41:47 AM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on January 02, 2015, 08:35:10 PM
I hadn't noticed the number of notches.... its just weird. No tellin.
The thing is, they are offset from each other on the two sides, not lining up like the notches on a std leaf do. Can the slider actually engage a single notch on either side? I know there are spring loaded buttons on both sides of the slider, but I admit I've never actually pulled one totally apart to see what make them tick...
I was curious about how the heck those buttons and springs work when I was searching for a proper replacement for this leaf....until I noticed it was numbered to the gun. Many available were leaf, spring, button, button spring and slider...when you added it all up it was quite spendy! Plus you get the added joy of trying to assemble it. After replacing a leaf spring on my /206\ I have shied away from considering any sight that messes with the RSB...I can only imagine the ordeal involved in getting the tiny springs into the buttons.
At least I don't have to replace it anymore. :)
It does engage in the slots on either side...whichever side doesn't engage moves
considerably it is the most hairbrained thing I have seen on a gun. Why would you reinvent the wheel when the sight leaf is about the only thing (aside from that pesky marking) that is consistent for virtually all SKS's? Sure the Yugo's get to be all flamboyant with the shiny metal and night sights...but essentially, it is the same design.
The fact that it has the 3 on there just adds to the frustration of what the heck those markings mean anyway...considering this odd attempt at fabrication includes that must mean something....right?
They come apart and go back together very easily.... give it a try sometime, the worst part is getting the leaf off. Practice makes perfect.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on January 03, 2015, 10:54:56 AM
They come apart and go back together very easily.... give it a try sometime, the worst part is getting the leaf off. Practice makes perfect.
Yeah...getting the leaf off was my biggest woe, getting it back on with the spring installed (properly) was nearly as difficult. I didn't have to mess with the buttons. On the DB I nearly ordered replacement buttons and springs as I thought one side was broken...that is, until I noticed only one side
could lock in.
I don't do ranges...we shoot out in the woods. I rarely get to shoot beyond what most would use the 'battle' position for...so I rarely even mess with the rear sight. There is usually a mountain in the way of shooting any farther. For many more years than I care to say...I had a hair tie holding the leaf down so it wouldn't bounce up after every shot on my first SKS. Fortunately for my poor guns, I have edjumacated myself a tad better. :)