Putting the Russian sneaks aside and not considering variables such as condition/Matching #'s. Is there any difference in desireability/worth between ghost,Sino's and other early type 56's? Thoughts?
I think invariably, condition and rarity are the driving factors determining collectibility of the early Type 56s. If you take out condition & matching #'s, I would rate rarity like this:
1) Soviet-Sino rifles.
2) 6 million /26\ rifles.
3) Side swivel 3 million /26\ series rifles.
4) Six digit /26\ rifles not 'DUP' stamped.
5) Other six digit /26\ rifles.
6) 2 million /26\ series.
7) 3 million /26\ series.
8.) Letter series /26\ rifles. (Certain letter subsets of these may be incredibly rare).
9) Ghost rifles.
Honestly though, I'd have a hard time judging between numbers 5-9 as the production and import numbers are pretty comparable and condition/matching numbers would probably be the main driver in these cases. Additionally, if you're interested in the Albanian aspect of many of these rifles, rack markings on stocks as are quite rare and 'trench art' varies wildly in quality and the number of markings on any individual gun. Some consider trench art a detriment instead of a positive.
Thanks for the list Running Man. I am interested in these rifles and hope to get a few of the variations before they eventually dry up.I would like to say your writings along with another member's here have taught me what I know so far about these early variations.
RM nailed it again...... I can see his head swelling from here. silly1
I'll defer to RM and LC on rarity/value-the list above sounds good to me. But if I'm thinking strictly which I like best with no regard to resale value, I'd go with Soviet-Sino number one followed by Ghosts second. I haven't been lucky enough to find a Soviet-Sino, but I do own some Ghosts, and besides being historically very interesting, they're just top-notch guns.
I'll never pretend to know where they fit into the desirability/rarity continuum, but I find the ghosts & letters to be the most interesting.
Bah Blicero, you'd own a AR before you'd pull the trigger on a ratty old Chinese letter gun! rofl2
Relic makes a great point. I think quality-wise, you would be hard pressed to beat a ghost. Cover over the S/N's, wood cartouche, and receiver cover stamp and I'd challenge anyone to try and consistently tell a ghost apart from an equal condition Russian. Early on, the Chinese followed the Russian formula to a "T", used obviously Russian supplied components, and had very good Russian technical oversight and it really shows.
I think rarity is given too much weight sometimes. Take Izhevsk guns for instance. I still refuse to believe that a pristine '53 Izhevsk is 3-4x the gun of an equally pristine '53 Tula like the price would indicate. That's just the world we live in I guess.
The historical aspect of the Albanian imports has yet to be fully appreciated too I think. Like I said above, some guys (*cough* Blicero *cough*) really see trench art as a ding on the gun and subtract accordingly while the fanboys (I guess that would be me, maybe LC too rofl2) might give too much of a pass for Alby mods seen on them like replacement Alby stocks. I suspect in 5 to 10 years, certain trench art, Alby replacement stock, and rack marked specimens will command a far higher price than the $200 to $300 these guns sold for in the past couple years. At the same time, certain exceptionally poor specimens will struggle to ever gain much value beyond what a typical bubba SKS commands at the market.
I think one Chinese is missing from the above list, the odd ball Public Security Forces SKS. Its one of the less common variants that's techincally a military spec weapon.
But then again, I'm sure somebody will tell me to go stand in the corner in my round room again rofl
Quote from: spicusor on November 27, 2014, 09:59:12 PM
Putting the Russian sneaks aside and not considering variables such as condition/Matching #'s. Is there any difference in desireability/worth between ghost,Sino's and other early type 56's? Thoughts?
I'm thinking he is referencing sub 60 guns here, but I guess its all subject to what you concider 'early'. RM and I like to include the 6m in a 'early rarity' list simply because we have only ever observed around 7-8 rifles.
On the subject of PS rifles, the earliest example I have seen is an 8m.
/26 Public Security - Chinese SKS Guide (http://chinesesks.weebly.com/26-public-security.html)
Quote from: Greasemonkey on November 29, 2014, 12:54:09 AM
I think one Chinese is missing from the above list, the odd ball Public Security Forces SKS. Its one of the less common variants that's techincally a military spec weapon.
But then again, I'm sure somebody will tell me to go stand in the corner in my round room again rofl
I'm with you on the security force marked version. I'd throw in the stamped and cast receiver models as well.
If you open it up to any Type 56, I'd agree with the stamped and cast assessment, but as far as pre-1960 or even pre 1970 guns, I don't know what more could really be added to the list.
I don't know that I'd go so far as to say the P.S. marked Type 56 is terribly uncommon. Interesting and unusual yes, but those things are all over Gunbroker all the time if you look hard enough. It's the same with certain arsenal stamps: /0223\ guns are all over the place. /016\, /636\ & [0138] too.
Up here we don't see many 26 guns that aren't heavily refurbed versions. My 79 is the only one of the 3 I have that is factory military original.
Most Type 56 here from recent are military surplus 306, 625 and 316 guns. I did find my 26in an import a year or so ago, but only because I requested the dealer keep an eye out for it.
My 016 SF gun had actually been a safe queen for some time. I had a wtb ad up for a 26 gun, and got offered it.
Rarity sometimes has everything to do with location and its related access.
Quote from: spicusor on November 27, 2014, 09:59:12 PM
Putting the Russian sneaks aside and not considering variables such as condition/Matching #'s. Is there any difference in desireability/worth between ghost,Sino's and other early type 56's? Thoughts?
The debate on rarity/collectability of chinese sks carbines can go on forever, but the OP was specifically talking about early guns.
Quote from: fenceline on December 02, 2014, 11:08:49 AM
Rarity sometimes has everything to do with location and its related access.
Good point. I would agree rarity is somewhat relative, dependent on geography (and time), especially in today's firearms market where each nation is an island. Lower cost SVT-40's and SKS-45's in Canada vs. the US are excellent examples, perhaps early Type 56's, Enfields, M1 Garands, or even Mosin Nagants are counter examples of cheaper prices in the US.
The question was on Chinese Type 56's and the location of the US seemed implicit to me...no offense to our Canadian brothers and sisters wink1 I think the early T56's are on our mind down here because they are currently available from retailers. No doubt they will go up in value as this batch dries up, perhaps for good, and demand outstrips supply.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 02, 2014, 11:37:41 AM
Quote from: spicusor on November 27, 2014, 09:59:12 PM
Putting the Russian sneaks aside and not considering variables such as condition/Matching #'s. Is there any difference in desireability/worth between ghost,Sino's and other early type 56's? Thoughts?
The debate on rarity/collectability of chinese sks carbines can go on forever, but the OP was specifically talking about early guns.
Going to my round room... ;)
Laff... just pushing the nose back on track a little. :)
Quote from: Phosphorus32 on December 02, 2014, 12:10:48 PM
Quote from: fenceline on December 02, 2014, 11:08:49 AM
Rarity sometimes has everything to do with location and its related access.
Good point. I would agree rarity is somewhat relative, dependent on geography (and time), especially in today's firearms market where each nation is an island. Lower cost SVT-40's and SKS-45's in Canada vs. the US are excellent examples, perhaps early Type 56's, Enfields, M1 Garands, or even Mosin Nagants are counter examples of cheaper prices in the US.
The question was on Chinese Type 56's and the location of the US seemed implicit to me...no offense to our Canadian brothers and sisters wink1 I think the early T56's are on our mind down here because they are currently available from retailers. No doubt they will go up in value as this batch dries up, perhaps for good, and demand outstrips supply.
You are correct about my post. However, It would be nice to know how the order of availability in Canada of the nine variations Running-Man listed in his post. Canadian's feel free to contribute!
Are you Canadian spicuser?
Quote from: fenceline on December 02, 2014, 12:11:50 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 02, 2014, 11:37:41 AM
Quote from: spicusor on November 27, 2014, 09:59:12 PM
Putting the Russian sneaks aside and not considering variables such as condition/Matching #'s. Is there any difference in desireability/worth between ghost,Sino's and other early type 56's? Thoughts?
The debate on rarity/collectability of chinese sks carbines can go on forever, but the OP was specifically talking about early guns.
Going to my round room... ;)
Round room in the corner thumb1 The med cart lady comes around every 6hrs, so all is good. Don't hide the pill under your tounge, she checks.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 04, 2014, 11:37:00 PM
Are you Canadian spicuser?
No sir, If I was Marstar would have all my money. :P
So what do you guys think a Ghost would be worth if you were buying one from a private seller? Good condition #'s matching
I don't think $350 is out of line if it's matching (including the stock), in very good shape, has a good bore, no popped primer issues, and has been cleaned well. Remember that you can get a pretty nice run of the mill type 56 on gunbroker for around $300 these days if you are patient. Until they are no longer sold at retail, I don't think you'll see them run more than $350 though.
really would have to see some decent pics.
Quote from: spicusor on December 05, 2014, 07:50:48 AM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 04, 2014, 11:37:00 PM
Are you Canadian spicuser?
No sir, If I was Marstar would have all my money. :P
Not no more. China jacked the price, and the dis run from there is done.
As for the rarity of those first few years, I think they are the rarest of the SKS we can get here. I think any of them would be a find, so much so putting one above the other in rarity ranking would be tough.
That being said, my "56" May not be the 56 I thought it was. Learning more all the time, and mine is a "S####" serial number /26\. Refurbed with a gold stock, but I grabbed it all the same.
I had heard that China jacked the prices up for Canadians fenceline....that's a real shame cry1
Based on our research, the letter prefix guns belong in the 1959-1960 timeframe. It's clear from just the feature set that they must come after the 3 mil /26\ series. Most places on the net want to put the letter prefix guns at the front of the line in 1956, but the evidence is seriously lacking to do this. Before the recent IO imports into the US, they were pretty uncommon down here too. The collectors that did have them wanted them to be more special than perhaps they actually were. One of the big features they claimed set them apart and made them unique was a stamp of a star on the stock. It's clear that this is not the case as the 2mil /26\ and 3 mil /26\ guns also had star stamps on them. I personally believe the star stamp is likely a refurb mark as not every gun has one, but it's a pretty weak opinion & needs more evidence in support of it to make it anything more than a W.A.G.
I haven't seen many /26\ SKS up here to begin with. Out of my 3 only the 24mill gun is complete. The other two are "refreshed" prior to arriving here. Proper markings on the receiver, but all other features are questionable. Refurb, or commercial refresh. My letter series is one of these. Still nice to have.
The run of chinese ammo and SKS was awesome. The SKS price got jacked up and the importers figured spoiled canadians wouldn't pay the price. Shame really. The ammo stopped when cosco decided they wouldn't ship it anymore.
Quote from: fenceline on December 06, 2014, 11:09:39 AM
I haven't seen many /26\ SKS up here to begin with. Out of my 3 only the 24mill gun is complete. The other two are "refreshed" prior to arriving here. Proper markings on the receiver, but all other features are questionable. Refurb, or commercial refresh. My letter series is one of these. Still nice to have.
The run of chinese ammo and SKS was awesome. The SKS price got jacked up and the importers figured spoiled canadians wouldn't pay the price. Shame really. The ammo stopped when cosco decided they wouldn't ship it anymore.
Canadian's still have a wealth of Russian sks rifles and svt's. I would love to have the ability to own these great pieces.
Quote from: spicusor on December 07, 2014, 11:25:59 AMCanadian's still have a wealth of Russian sks rifles and svt's. I would love to have the ability to own these great pieces.
If I could I'd gladly trade a couple of Russians for an Albanian or Romanian.
You guys and your silly embargoes. Haha fart1