The first time I noticed this was on a letter Chinese I bought some time ago. There are two sets of numbers on it, but the second set matches the last four numbers of the serial.
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/4f87996d2dc88be861c3a57e92835fef.jpg)
This SKS has the small CAI import mark on the barrel with the "SKS 7.62 CHINA" mark, indicating an early import.
I really didn't think anything of it until I examined the stock on "Sneaky Bastard", my early Russian masquerading as an IO Chinese.
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/a14bdb9638ef4b7fc526eb943598ed3c.jpg)
It is hard to see, but stamped on the stock is a faint 2475, the last four numbers of the serial.
There would seem to be no connections between these two SKS', other than the style of stamping. The font is even different.
Could there be some connection here, or just coincidence? Anybody else ever see this on another SKS?
Early century chinese...... hmmm. More pics please! The serial, import stamp... everything.
You've seen this one before, over yonder...
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/Sino.jpg)
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/Sinorightside.jpg)
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/Import7544.jpg)
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/26.jpg)
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/Sinobarrelstamps.jpg)
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/Sinobolt.jpg)
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/Used.jpg)
There appears to be no extraneous marks on the receiver or barrel, but the finish on the receiver, mag, and receiver cover appear almost more like parkerizing than bluing, probably just wear and oxidation though. It currently resides in a beautiful S series stock with correct red shellac ($10 at the gun show!). If anyone has S8672, I have your stock! 8)
I still have the "original" stock, taking the place of a beat up F series stock for shooter purposes.
I said it was sanded? Hmmm.. it does look light colored for a used Israeli capture. ;)
The stock it these pics is the stock it came in?
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 22, 2014, 12:08:26 PM
I said it was sanded? Hmmm.. it does look light colored for a used Israeli capture. ;)
The stock it these pics is the stock it came in?
ETA: My bad! it wasn't you who said it was sanded...
Yes it is... and I can put it back in a heartbeat or two...
Another Israeli? Hell, if these keep popping up, they will become common and that Tula on layaway will be ordinary again... chuckles1
So I take it the early CAI stamp is evidence of Israeli capture? How definitive is that, for future reference?
From what we can tell, century only used that mark for a couple of years and its consistent with a very spicific batch when your talking chinese. In this same timeframe and stamp, there was a crapton of like new russians imported from likely the Ukraine. Century was not importing new and refurbed to new rifles from china in this timeframe.
Furthermore...... I/we are convinced there was everything from early chinnese to 12m and even russians captured by Israel and within this batch. The arab rack numbers, laminated stocks, and blued bolt carriers are simply the easy spotters.
Thanks for the info, and the sharp eye.
So, no connection between this and the "Sneaky Bastard" and the last four serial stamp? One would presume that the SB was kicking around Eastern Europe with all the recent imports due to the recent IO import stamp, but it looks like it traveled a lot after the stock stamp was made...
No tellin..... a former owner could have put it on there. Did you get it from century in early 80s?
My quote from other place
QuoteLooks to me like it wasn't sanded, but more than likely smoothed out and simi-stripped with mineral spirits
bat1 bat1
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 22, 2014, 12:28:18 PM
No tellin..... a former owner could have put it on there. Did you get it from century in early 80s?
My quote from other place
QuoteLooks to me like it wasn't sanded, but more than likely smoothed out and simi-stripped with mineral spirits
bat1 bat1
Found the post, and fixed mine... Mea culpa! :-*
BTW, Sneaky Bastard seems to have a 1951 Tula stock... with it's 1951 or prior features and lack of chrome lining. Pretty sure it is not original though, but the original serial is too hard to make out. Looks like two Cyrillic + three digits without XXXXX...
I have an early century letter gun also. V12***
Well used gun.... remember, the chinese were aiding the plo with small arms as early as 1958, and thats who Israel smashed in Lebanon 1982 capturing a buttload of plo and syrian small arms.
Interesting oli! Is the first S/N on that stock a J9671? I've never understood the rhyme or reason the Chinese had when stamping the letter series stocks. Some were small narrow font while others were small wide font, but it doesn't go In ABC order. I know C E F and X have wide while G I and J certainly have narrow. M has a mixture of and narrow letters, but the numbers have all been narrow. The second set of stamps must have been done at some kind of refurb.
As for the Russian, who knows?! We've seen horizontal stamps, XXX'd out, sanded out, numbers only w/o Cyrillic, Cyrillic with numbers on a separate line, huge numerals, no numerals you name it. I'd have a hard time attributing that second stamp to anyone other than the Russians at this point, there's just no proof.
Just for grins, do you see any star stampings anywhere on either stock? Inside where the receiver cutouts are included?
Ok... I see now. The 7544 on the stock matches the receiver. I would think the park type finish on some of the metal, and the replacement stock with forcematch # were done in china prior to going abroad.
OR... someone such as the syrians had swapped the stock and numbered it.
A
I'll go with the latter as that fancy 7 font I haven't seen out of china.
Some Syrian porn
(http://chinesesks.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/29221347/6187412.jpg?1410108047)
Quote from: running-man on November 22, 2014, 12:43:19 PM
Interesting oli! Is the first S/N on that stock a J9671? I've never understood the rhyme or reason the Chinese had when stamping the letter series stocks. Some were small narrow font while others were small wide font, but it doesn't go In ABC order. I know C E F and X have wide while G I and J certainly have narrow. M has a mixture of and narrow letters, but the numbers have all been narrow. The second set of stamps must have been done at some kind of refurb.
As for the Russian, who knows?! We've seen horizontal stamps, XXX'd out, sanded out, numbers only w/o Cyrillic, Cyrillic with numbers on a separate line, huge numerals, no numerals you name it. I'd have a hard time attributing that second stamp to anyone other than the Russians at this point, there's just no proof.
Just for grins, do you see any star stampings anywhere on either stock? Inside where the receiver cutouts are included?
No stars, other than the faint Tula star on SB. The 7544 stock has a lot of grit on the inside, though, like I have read that Israeli captures do. I always thought the other serial was 19641, but it could be a J. The grain and wear in that area is not helpful...
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/IMG_20141122_121613.jpg)
BTW S seems to be a mix as well...
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/S8672.jpg)
Quote from: running-man on November 22, 2014, 12:43:19 PM
Interesting oli! Is the first S/N on that stock a J9671? I've never understood the rhyme or reason the Chinese had when stamping the letter series stocks. Some were small narrow font while others were small wide font, but it doesn't go In ABC order. I know C E F and X have wide while G I and J certainly have narrow. M has a mixture of and narrow letters, but the numbers have all been narrow. The second set of stamps must have been done at some kind of refurb.
As for the Russian, who knows?! We've seen horizontal stamps, XXX'd out, sanded out, numbers only w/o Cyrillic, Cyrillic with numbers on a separate line, huge numerals, no numerals you name it. I'd have a hard time attributing that second stamp to anyone other than the Russians at this point, there's just no proof.
Just for grins, do you see any star stampings anywhere on either stock? Inside where the receiver cutouts are included?
Don't forget the slashed ( / ) out numbers on my Israeli-Capture 9 mill w/ Russian Hardwood field replacement stock:
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg12_zps18d356b0.jpg)
Look familiar oli?
V gun
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/IMG_20140708_153105_959.jpg)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/IMG95201407089515275895229.jpg)
12m Israeli Cap
(http://chinesesks.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/29221347/2855477_orig.jpg)
(http://chinesesks.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/29221347/6681744_orig.jpg)
Stoned,
Can't be certain, but almost every early barrel-stamped Century import (Chicom) has pointed me towards it being Israeli-Captured. The two that i have seen now that don't have any specific traits that point it towards the middle east have been:
-LC's 'V' Letter Series
&
-Your letter Series here.
Makes me wonder.. Both letter series.. Same import batch, no specific middle east traits.
But, there have been plenty of 9 & 12 mills that don't scream "Israel cap!" but are. They are easily looked passed and disregarded as what they truly are. I do believe both of your letter series to be Israeli Captures but we cannot be 100% certain.
What will really help their case is if we come across a Letter Series that does have the common features: Arabic marked stocks, red reshellac, black painted part(s), a jiim stamp, etc.
What both of yours has going for it is the Century Mark, and the battle-like patina. Both of which are usually found. Also, let's not forget that China was supplying the PLO very early in the 60's, which fits the Letter Series time-frame spot on.
Something you need to note is there is an oddity. We see plenty of weird markings coming out of the middle east, and the serial restamp is a little odd.
Definitely keep the gun, and an eye out for other rifles and their features. But always look for that Century barrel mark first.
Here is the one on my 12 Mill
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg2_zps210f2370.jpg)
Yes, LC that does look familiar.
Something else I noticed about 7544... it has a level of bayonet wear that none of my others can even approach! Not even Bajraktar (A tale of two Russians... in Russian SKS - Page 1 of 1 (http://sks-files.com/russian-sks/19/a-tale-of-two-russians/253/msg2564#msg2564)), and it saw service in the Balkans apparently, and has virtually no finish left.
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/Bayowear.jpg)
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/Bayowear2.jpg)
Plo musta been scared... alot rofl
Or... maybe it was used by the guard and in the fixed position alot.
I'll drop the fart in the elevator:
LC's V gun and 12 mil gun have similar, but not identical import stamps.
The SKS 7.62 CHINA stamps are identical.
The 12 mil has a CAI ST.ALB.VT while the V series has a CAI ST. A. VT. (same as Oli's in the OP) which is clearly a different stamp.
Worm's 12 mil is identical to LC's 12, but both stamps are on the same side and one isn't upside down (which is no biggie in the grand scheme of things, maybe a different guy stamping that day or something) The different stamp itself, I have a bigger issue with. Likley from a totally different batch of guns. I think grouping the V and the 12's together based on only the stamp is a bit of a stretch. (but based on other characteristics like stock finishes, etc. the argument is easily made) Both were obviously brought in before CAI moved from St. Albans to Georgia, VT, but I'd have to say a different batch of guns. Now, it's needless to say they both could have come from the same place such as we've seen with the Monroe, NC / Palm Bay, FL IO stamps on the recent Sino-Banians, but I think unlikely they were brought in at the same time....
What do the stamps on the blued bolt guns typically look like, or maybe they are a mixture of these two stamps? Maybe there are other 9/12 mils with the same stamp that is seen on LC's V series gun? That would help solidify at least a couple separate Israeli capture import batches maybe?
Interesting... I never noticed the LB missing from the V. Like you mentioned, they are from the same time period etc. Have to have Worm dig into his picture archives
I'll still love it, even if it doesn't have Arab dirt in it...
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on November 22, 2014, 09:09:32 PM
I'll still love it, even if it doesn't have Arab dirt in it...
The ones from china..... including the laminated blued bolt rifles that NEVER made the trip have a different version of this stamp in this time period. Clearly stamped Norinco.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/pix093431602.jpg)
The only other location I have ever heard of other than china was this arab batch. The missing LB version could simply be a first of two small batches. They did not come from china, and we know darn well where the LB marked guns came from... its a good bet the A guns are from the same location.
RM,
Stamps don't have to be opposite from each other to be isr-cap. They have been seen on top another, across another, upside down, etc. and I have pics of every.
I would have to look through to see if any letters are missing, but pretty sure all say
CAI.ST.ALB.VT
The V
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/IMG_20130723_165906_705-1.jpg)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/IMG_20130723_165511_528.jpg)
I'd have to say, finding those missing letters in the import mark can only mean different batch, probably from a different region. Must have been the very very first imports.
Good eye RM.
Both being letter series is also pretty neat. Means it was more than likely aid from that 1960ish time period.
Guess we can knock Letter series off the Israel list.
Quote from: Worm on November 23, 2014, 11:30:47 AM
I'd have to say, finding those missing letters in the import mark can only mean different batch, probably from a different region. Must have been the very very first imports.
Good eye RM.
Both being letter series is also pretty neat. Means it was more than likely aid from that 1960ish time period.
Guess we can knock Letter series off the Israel list.
I don't know if I'd go that far yet Mitch...if they have other features that tie them in to the 9s and 12s like stock finish or patina or whatever, maybe they do belong. You know a heck of a lot more about these Israeli Captures than I do for certain. LC was laughing at me the other day for focussing on stock stamps and missing that a particular gun was an Israeli Capture! rofl
LC and I were talking about the stamps last night and we both agree that ATF regs get more strict and detailed as time goes on. CAI might have gotten away with a CAI ST. A. VT. stamp early on, but when ATF decided, "No you have to use a 'standard' recognizable abbreviation" they must have changed over to CAI ST.ALB.VT. I think it's a pretty good bet to say that the simpler stamp predates the one with more information. It doesn't have to be I guess..they could have changed for any number of reasons, but being forced to change by the ATF would be at the top of my list...
Quote from: running-man on November 23, 2014, 12:07:19 PM
Quote from: Worm on November 23, 2014, 11:30:47 AM
I'd have to say, finding those missing letters in the import mark can only mean different batch, probably from a different region. Must have been the very very first imports.
Good eye RM.
Both being letter series is also pretty neat. Means it was more than likely aid from that 1960ish time period.
Guess we can knock Letter series off the Israel list.
I don't know if I'd go that far yet Mitch...if they have other features that tie them in to the 9s and 12s like stock finish or patina or whatever, maybe they do belong. You know a heck of a lot more about these Israeli Captures than I do for certain. LC was laughing at me the other day for focussing on stock stamps and missing that a particular gun was an Israeli Capture! rofl
LC and I were talking about the stamps last night and we both agree that ATF regs get more strict and detailed as time goes on. CAI might have gotten away with a CAI ST. A. VT. stamp early on, but when ATF decided, "No you have to use a 'standard' recognizable abbreviation" they must have changed over to CAI ST.ALB.VT. I think it's a pretty good bet to say that the simpler stamp predates the one with more information. It doesn't have to be I guess..they could have changed for any number of reasons, but being forced to change by the ATF would be at the top of my list...
How do you feel about the sandy grit on the inside of the stock?
I guess so, we'll just have to keep an eye out for any letter series with more features.
Stoned,
Travis's 12 mill (I owned it first) arrived at my house with sand on the inside when i took the stock off. It has been noted by other folks with IC guns
IC is my new abbreviation btw. Lol
We have no less than three or four dif import markes on the recent rifles from Albania and they consisted of dif variations. To exclude letter guns or any other variation because of two letters dropped in a very small timeframe would be insane.
Pics o' the grit. There is also a large number 4 stamped inside...
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/Grit.jpg)
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/Grit4.jpg)
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/Grit4anntated.jpg)
Uh huh.... the ole sand mixed/embedded in cosmo.
V before cleanup.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/IMG_20141123_120429.jpg)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/IMG_20141123_120458.jpg)
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 23, 2014, 12:44:21 PM
We have no less than three or four dif import markes on the recent rifles from Albania and they consisted of dif variations. To exclude letter guns or any other variation because of two letters dropped in a very small timeframe would be insane.
Not sure how that would be
insane, NO letter guns have ever been found with arabic markings or blued carriers, etc. And the only two so far
noticed with an early Century barrel mark are missing a few characters.
2 letter series..
Same import mark as each other, but different from IC guns..
No IC characteristics except sand.. Which could be from MANY places..
And it's Insane to think they're a different batch from another place?
I say completely inconclusive, and no way to tell until (if) we actually find a letter series with more, or any features for that matter.
Nope... just stating they can easily be from the same location. Your the one who automagically ruled it out based on??
But hey, your the boss man. thumb1
1) near identical stamp likely from within year or two of the other
2) well used same overall characteristics.... nam guns have a certain look for example
3) did you look at the color of the V?
4) you know as well as I do there are several examples that dont conform to blued/lammy/9m/12m
5) when did the plo start to be supplied with small arms again?
6) sand. chuckles1
How many pre IO letterguns from century mark have yo looked at?
All I'm saying is..
I was about 80% on these being in the same batch until RM found the missing LB, now I'm about at 30% as there is still a possibility they changed mid stride.
I am still quite certain these came from at least the same region and very possibly the same location.
Worm.... In your research, what other countries or arab states did you find evidence of century importing chinese sks carbines from? Egypt? Syria? Pakistan? Bangladesh?
To rule out same location from any of this (to me) is not very open minded.... again, look at the recent banians and the several stamps associated with them. These "a" only stamped rifles from century have more in common to your IC guns than ANY other known cai guns.
Have ALL IC guns had blued carriers? No
Have all IC guns had laminated stocks? No
Have all IC guns had black paint? No
Have all IC guns had re-shellac? No
Have all IC guns had Arabic painted #s? No
Have all IC guns had an import mark? No
Bringing an old thread back to life, never noticed last comments. After much reconsideration, I'd have to agree these are IC.
After looking into early imports and not having much luck, it seems as if the earliest Chinese SKS's were from Israel.
Being the CAI ST A VT is missing two characters from the standard CAI ST ALB VT, yet are identical in font, and size, I would imagine the "A" quickly turned into "ALB".
The fact that we received only 9 & 12 Mills, with the exception of a Russian that Stoned just got (and possibly a few others secretly roaming the states), when Lebanon was such a huge melting pot of SKS's (Germans, Russians, Chinese, Romanians, probably more) means that when Israel invaded Lebanon & captured millions of dollars worth of weapons, they must have done some major sorting when they started exporting.
We find Russian SKS's from Canada that are Arabic marked from the same period. Israel sent different rifles to different regions it seems, or maybe it was just whatever the importers worked out with them at the time.
(See Israel Cap-Sino-PLO Sticky for more info on the war and cap'd weapons if ya want)
Since we figure these are an earlier import (Probably NOT by much) I would assume these were also from Israel, but possibly a different batch. It could have been the ATF that said to add the "LB" to the "A" with Century's next batch, or Century just chose to be more specific, but I believe it was a separate batch.
There is no reason I can think of that the PLO would just receive 9's and 12's when aid was so plentiful, even from early 60's.
That sand in the receiver is identical to many reports of IC guns, in both Stoned's & Cannon's examples. The fact that Stoned's stock is sanded, and that Cannon's stock looks like it could have gotten the common IC red shellac supports them being IC. The sand looks just like Cannon's arab marked 12 mill right when I bought it, all caked to the gun.
I just found an 8 mill on Gunbroker with the same import mark, with matching numbers and similar patina, so I pulled the trigger on it. This seems to be a VERY small batch, as looking throughout other older forum posts and photos of older imported SKS's I cannot find any other examples. Not a single one. And my brain is FRIED after looking the last few days. I could be just missing them, however.
Here is the 8 mill. I decided to join the club.
Very similar Patina to IC's, like my current 9 mill, and your guys' letter series:
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/imagejpg1_zpsd9363fbd.jpg)
The fact that there are less than 10 arab marked IC's while theres about 40+ known, And since we've only seen 3 examples of these, means it's not enough to say they are NOT IC's because of lack of arabic marks.
These feature caked sand, matching patina, the correct era of production, ruby red stock, a sanded stock, and an import mark of the same era as the IC's.
I believe it's safe to say.
Also, I just remembered, a "Legendary bird" 6 mill popped up some time back on the broker, that had a very obvious ruby reshellac and worn patina. I should have bought it, but I didn't.
I never knew what the import mark was, but I'd be willing to bet it matches these.
6 mill fits right in between Letter series & 8 mills too.
Uh oh Mitch, LC is going to get after you for not pointing him to a possible IC 6 mil /26\. :-X cry1
Quote from: running-man on January 19, 2015, 04:11:01 PM
Uh oh Mitch, LC is going to get after you for not pointing him to a possible IC 6 mil /26\. :-X cry1
Lol, he knew about it. It was a tad pricey, and I had second thoughts. I'm regretting it a tad. He had is 6 mill already though, it was about the same time he got his IIRC.
Quote from: running-man on January 19, 2015, 04:11:01 PM
Uh oh Mitch, LC is going to get after you for not pointing him to a possible IC 6 mil /26\. :-X cry1
We all talked about it in club area. pullhair1
And Mitch..... bat1
Just to clarify.. I DO think this was a separate, earlier imported batch that came before the 9 & 12 mill batch.