Now with pics!
I was in a favorite honey-hole Friday, and they had an almost nice 1955 Tula with the Д suffix. It looked like a non-refurb, but sadly someone apparently made off with the original stock and then replaced it with one that seems to have the correct shellac, but no numbers or stamps. The bayonet is missing, and the price tag is high...
I didn't know letter guns crossed over into stamped receiver cover territory!
I dont think they do... I'll be willing to bet it IS a refurb and could be sporting a cover from any time period, or it was replaced by the previous owner.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 18, 2014, 09:25:57 AM
I dont think they do... I'll be willing to bet it IS a refurb and could be sporting a cover from any time period, or it was replaced by the previous owner.
I'll have to see if I can grab a couple pics... I know they are pic friendly there.
I've got two trains of thought for the letter guns with '55 receiver covers.
1) '55 covers were stamped at manufacture and some of these leftover covers were serialized and installed onto these guns as the supply was used up. There are certain no date, but Tula star stamped covers that have also been found. It could be that the date and arsenal stamp were done in totally different operations, or maybe the date was simply forgotten on a particular batch? Either way, it seems that the Russians had gotten lax about the fancy dating components by the end of '55 and it's clear that the Д suffix guns marked a shift in how the Russians marked the dating of their SKSs.
2) Letter guns going through a refurb could have received replacement covers that were scrubbed and renumbered. This has been well documented with numerous guns such as a '49 cover appearing on a Д suffix gun with a 'matching' serial number.
The truth is, we simply don't know what a refurbishment consisted of and we most certainly can never say XYZ rifle was 'unissued'. I personally think it's a stretch to say that XYZ rifle is 'non / unrefurbished' too. The rifle may be in gorgeous shape, with all matching serial numbers, very sharp & visible stock stamps and excellent metal that demands a high premium over lesser examples, but making a call like that on something we know so little about is going a bit too far. (I know I'm in the vast minority with this opinion, but hey I've been wrong before! rofl2)
Do all letter guns have a star on the receiver?
As far as I know they all are. I've certainly never seen a Tula Д, И, K letter suffix w/o the Tula star on the receiver, but I'm certainly not as well versed in Russians as most people are. I do know that there are Izhevsk guns with odd letter suffixes like E & X, but those are typically single Cyrillic prefixes with three digit numerals.
Got to stop in a snap a couple of shots today... no star on the receiver...
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/069ff88e823889a625094c8f6ceaee3f.jpg)
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/4b579d613e41dda36916c4f3ab48bf1f.jpg)
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/1341475f964272285116e75a7b69bf8b.jpg)
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/060e33a3077103ab4a41be34c8facf22.jpg)
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/9705c2793962d4bde457accd020bda43.jpg)
There is a serial number on the stock, buried under the thickest shellac I have seen on a Russian SKS, but I am pretty sure it is not the same as the rest of the serialized parts. I wouldn't be able to guess if the stock was added as part of a refurb process or as a replacement after Bubba. There are no obvious refurb markings, and no import marks on the receiver; there is likely one on the barrel considering the "Anglification" of the serial number. The stock appears slimmer than normal too, probably sanded within an inch of it's life at some point.
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/8ee4800611a01d7b10325129b85b8d94.jpg)
Canadian border hopping Israeli Capture
Cool, that's an odd duck, lots of changes happening that year anything is possible.
Did you buy it?
Quote from: CARBINE on November 19, 2014, 11:47:35 PM
Cool, that's an odd duck, lots of changes happening that year anything is possible.
Did you buy it?
No, that little tag says $549...
#1. Russian refurbs are not real heavily sanded
#2. Russian refurbs receive new serials on the stock
#3. Russian refurbs dont receive that heavy and sloppy of a re-shellac
#4. Russian refurbs dont have shellac completly filling/covering the crossbolt.
Whether it hopped the border, is not import marked, and from Canadas old batch of Israeli captures, or it was in the early Century batch of Israeli captures.
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on November 19, 2014, 11:15:48 PM
Got to stop in a snap a couple of shots today... no star on the receiver...
Well I'll be, now I get to learn! That's a heck of a neat one you found oli! I bet if we tracked the S/Ns and the Tula star appearance we could find out how many '55 receivers were left over and used to make the starless '56 letter D guns.
CAI were the ones that tried the individual Cyrillic letter translations on Russians I believe. ATF really didn't like it... :)
OK, I guess I have to go back now and check for the import mark...
At $400 or so I would be all over it, but the price is just to high... usually the choice is layaway or negotiate in those situations... and I did promise the guy I would let him know what he had, too...
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on November 19, 2014, 11:53:56 PM
No, that little tag says $549...
Talk em down $100? That's not too bad a deal at that price I think, ESP if it does turn out to be an Israeli capture! I'm leaning that way too the more I look at that stock. think1. Where's worm?!
I already identified the darn thing. fart1
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 20, 2014, 12:16:33 AM
I already identified the darn thing. fart1
Indeed!
And confirmed my thoughts on Russian stocks in the process... :P
Anybody going to Kirksville Missouri in the near future?
(http://chinesesks.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/29221347/92577_orig.jpg)
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 20, 2014, 12:16:33 AM
I already identified the darn thing. fart1
Bah, I don't trust a word that comes outta your mouth!! bouncecool1
I would go back and look for a
(http://chinesesks.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/29221347/9041623_orig.jpg)
But what the hell do I know. bat1
Israeli. Can tell by the stock. It's dead spot on imo. I'd get it. They were commonly sanded down to nothing & then reshellaced with a very thick dark red.
No import marks gives it away. Canada received quite a few Russians from Israel, this is a border jumper. LC called it
Just to let everyone know before some common questions are asked..
The reason it is not pinned to 5 rounds is because that law did not go into effect in Canada until 92. These Israeli cap's were imported pre-92, (post 85).
Also, a lot of people will say, "why no Israel property mark?"
In the Lebanon invasion in 82' Israel captured billions of dollars worth of arms, ammo, etc. Many small arms were designated for export almost immediately, to make some profit off of the invasion. No reason to property mark everything.
Thats a rare gun in so many dimensions, you should buy it! Strap that thing on the front of or motorcyle and smile from ear to ear on the way home!! ;) Don't mind the cold you can do it.. thumb1
Quote from: CARBINE on November 20, 2014, 10:31:46 AM
Thats a rare gun in so many dimensions, you should buy it! Strap that thing on the front of or motorcyle and smile from ear to ear on the way home!! ;) Don't mind the cold you can do it.. thumb1
I agree, purchase this bad boy. You don't see many. I've seen about 6, most of which are already owned. This is the second I've seen for sale in a couple years.
I would buy, and immediately strip it down and search for markings.
BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY !!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Worm on November 20, 2014, 10:11:18 AM
LC called it
Bah Worm, you're not helping here! LC is difficult enough to deal with w/o validation that he's right 0.0001% of the time! rofl2
I think Oli's going to find a small CAI mark on the barrel of this gun when he looks at it again, something like this:
(http://www.katsko.net/Firearms/SKS/sksrus04.jpg)
Those KR…D translation stamps above the S/N would only have been put in by an importer. Of course I guess they might have been put in by the Canadian importer too, so Canada is still plausible, though I'm sticking with my guess of it being a CAI. thankyou1 (I've been wrong on this thread so many times, you'd think I'd have learned by now eh? rofl)
Neat gun, good discussion! thumb1
RM I missed that he said there may be one on the barrel. My mistake. There more than likely will be the early Century mark on the barrel.
Even so, the Israeli cap's were imported by early Century. Still fits the descr.
Yup... It could def be an early cai gun also. Like worm said... still fits the bill for an Israeli cap.
But the worst part is, we just found out RM is horrible with percentages. :-X
Most definitely does. If I had any grace whatsoever, I'd say that LC was talking about it being a CAI way up in this thread.
But I don't want it to go to his head! chuckles1
I think the Israeli Cap provenance completely trumps a mixture of transitional features. thumb1
Only like 10,000 Izzy guns to 6 of these? Hmmmm.... priorities jacked up beyond all recognition.
So here's a question for you Israeli capture fan boys (sorry couldn't resist) :)
Chinese guns obviously came straight from China…years match up quite well for 9 mil/12 mil date of manufacture and known Chinese aid to the PLA/Syria and whatnot…
How did the Russian guns get there? Straight from Russia? Possibly via China? This might spill over into dealing with the question of where the sneak Russians that came in from Albania might have actually originated from.
Im pretty sure Russia aided the living crap out of all these anti Israel states at one time or another. Just because none of the russian skss in the US were imported from russia, dont mean the plo or Syria would have to jump through hoops.
But.... I recon they could have came from anywhere... including China. :)
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 20, 2014, 11:39:29 AM
I think the Israeli Cap provenance completely trumps a mixture of transitional features. thumb1
Only like 10,000 Izzy guns to 6 of these? Hmmmm.... priorities jacked up beyond all recognition.
Its all about knowledge, everyone knows izzy's are rare, kind of like a 69 camaro vs a 69 covair, both rare but camaro gets all the LOVE! :P :P
Apples/oranges.
The two rifles in question are the exact same model from the exact same producer. A comaro and a corvair are two completely dif models. :)
Some russians sat in a cave.... some helped shape history. Whats in your rifle?
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 20, 2014, 12:35:28 PM
Apples/oranges.
The two rifles in question are the exact same model from the exact same producer. A comaro and a corvair are two completely dif models. :)
Some russians sat in a cave.... some helped shape history. Whats in your rifle?
But Izhevsk gets all the LOVE :P :P rofl
I think its time for some dancing bananas!
banana time banana time banana time
Of course they do..... brain washing galore. rofl
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/IMG952019.jpg)
RM,
Russia was aiding Egypt from the get-go. And actually, the only reason Syria got Chinese aid in the first place was to make Russia jealous, and push them to send aid, which they ended up doing.
I have to admit these sound like badass guns, full of history! They are worth collecting for sure!
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 20, 2014, 12:35:28 PM
Apples/oranges.
The two rifles in question are the exact same model from the exact same producer. A comaro and a corvair are two completely dif models. :)
Some russians sat in a cave.... some helped shape history. Whats in your rifle?
could not agree more
You guys are really not helping, I was going to show the guy this thread to get the price down! :P
I will try to get it, to protect it from Tapco-intercoursement...
How do we feel about the missing bayonet? rofl
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on November 20, 2014, 12:56:54 PM
You guys are really not helping, I was going to show the guy this thread to get the price down! :P
I will try to get it, to protect it from Tapco-intercoursement...
How do we feel about the missing bayonet? rofl
Ataboy!!! I think you will be glad you did!
I would just cut the bayo lug off who needs it anyway! :)
I can delete all the posts after your op and we can start over? rofl
Awesome!! Keep us updated!!
Quote from: Worm on November 20, 2014, 12:46:19 PM
RM,
Russia was aiding Egypt from the get-go. And actually, the only reason Syria got Chinese aid in the first place was to make Russia jealous, and push them to send aid, which they ended up doing.
Ahh I forgot about the %$%$# Egyptians! I see direct USSR involvement with the War of Attrition from '67-'70, very interesting.
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on November 20, 2014, 12:56:54 PM
You guys are really not helping, I was going to show the guy this thread to get the price down! :P
I will try to get it, to protect it from Tapco-intercoursement...
How do we feel about the missing bayonet? rofl
Missing bayonet should bring the price down $100 minimum! rofl
We joke about pristine cave dwelling Izhevsks and whatnot...but seriously as a specimen in xyz condition, what's this gun actually worth? It's got a dicked up stock for certain, metal may have some issues (light rust on the bolt carrier?), and it is obviously missing the original bayo. If there was no Israeli connection, what would this thing sell on GB for? I'd say $450 max in that condition. Maybe $500 at absolute most if someone *really* fell in love with it. The recent ridiculous $1000+ prices notwithstanding, trying to get $550 out of it is a stretch in my opinion. Despite not being imported anymore, Russian SKSs aren't really all that rare, they just get put up on that high pedestal, the demand is there, and prices move accordingly. I'd say if they were still allowed in like Mosin Nagants are, they'd be in the $300-$400 range and the Sino-Banians would be lucky to be pushing $200-$250.
P.S. Dammit, I'm actually arguing Blicero's position here…wth!?
For Travis's 12 mill Israel Cap that I originally purchased I paid $495-shipped. If we're going by middle east provenance I would easily add $200> to the price of the gun itself. But that's just me, a middle east cap fanboy.
I have a pretty good idea of what it is etc, but is doesn't exactly have arab rack numbers either. With out a bayo, I would say the RM price is about right.
Russian... Chinese.... Pft.. If russians were still imported, there would bee 10 million more here than there already is, and the Sinobanian would be worth double. Just look at the polytech AK and others. thumb1
It's on layaway at $450! :)
Early CAI import stamp on barrel as predicted, but no other stamps other than normal Russian. All metal parts match.
Will post better pics when I pick it up.
AWESOME thumb1
Noice... we need more pics. thumb1 like... any parts such as the buttplate being painted etc.
Good deal Oli!
These guys are the worst people to ask about a gun like this! They are like friggin' crack dealers, OMG! I'd be thankful you got out with only 1 new Russian! tomato1
yup, check the plate for black paint, you already know it has the correct shellac. check the metal for any odd marks also. Check the bolt to see if it is mismatched, and if it is check for a reweld. They did this to correct headspace issues in the mid east.
Also, check for a recrown, another thing common with these.
Most pf these aren't very common but are seen with israel cap's here n there.
Yes the butt plate was painted black, IIRC. The bolt is matching though, as are the mag and trigger group. I didn't check the EP parts... The only stamps I saw that didn't look like inspection stamps were a pair of 2s about a foot apart on the left side of the barrel, but they look like the font used for the matching stamps at the front of the receiver and on the barrel.
Yes, you guys are enablers for sure! I may have to sell a Mosin now... :/
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on November 20, 2014, 05:07:24 PM
Yes the butt plate was painted black, IIRC. The bolt is matching though, as are the mag and trigger group. I didn't check the EP parts... The only stamps I saw that didn't look like inspection stamps were a pair of 2s about a foot apart on the left side of the barrel, but they look like the font used for the matching stamps at the front of the receiver and on the barrel.
Yes, you guys are enablers for sure! I may have to sell a Mosin now... :/
Thats just what they did on (some) parts during their hasty rehab process. This is not bbq and IS a characteristic of an Israeli capture.
If you ever decide to let this one go from your collection.... Keep it in the sksfiles family, The only place that can identify such a critter. thumb1
Very cool! If it is painted black that helps its case even moreso. 1 out of the 3 I own(ed) has it too.
An obvious Middle East refurb stock.
Even if it doesnt have a black painted buttplate, the resand/reshellac is obvious in itself. It would just like LC's 12 mill's stock. Resand/reshalleced red & his buttplate isnt painted either, but is still an obvious israeli cap.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 20, 2014, 05:14:53 PM
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on November 20, 2014, 05:07:24 PM
Yes the butt plate was painted black, IIRC. The bolt is matching though, as are the mag and trigger group. I didn't check the EP parts... The only stamps I saw that didn't look like inspection stamps were a pair of 2s about a foot apart on the left side of the barrel, but they look like the font used for the matching stamps at the front of the receiver and on the barrel.
Yes, you guys are enablers for sure! I may have to sell a Mosin now... :/
Thats just what they did on (some) parts during their hasty rehab process. This is not bbq and IS a characteristic of an Israeli capture.
If you ever decide to let this one go from your collection.... Keep it in the sksfiles family, The only place that can identify such a critter. thumb1
Will do! If not for you guys, I wouldn't have recognized its significance... Thanks!
Heres the black paint on mine.
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/image_zps7f743f88.jpg)
(http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u604/mspeth23/image_zps80d5b3b9.jpg)
Non IC Russians were imported in the same timeframe and with the same cai stamp, but they were not IC guns. Yours has zero indications it was in the IC batch while Stoneds does. They came from dif locations, yours likely the Ukraine
Quote from: 06sandstone on December 15, 2014, 10:15:07 AM
Stoned. I have a 55 dated letter D on the way as well . Same importer and KPas yours . Might be ISIS captured...... rofl, chuckles1
I'll ask around....... chuckles1 rofl2
Compare your serial number to the one on Yooper's page 21 New Page 1 (http://www.yooperj.com/SKS-21.htm) ... "Mine" is 3900 or so before it, and the one in the pics on that page has no date... is yours between them by chance?
I can't believe I bought the Mosin instead of making a payment on it... fart1
Definitely a pattern with those early KP prefixed guns being w/o the Tula star. Interesting stuff!