Yesterday I visited a pawn shop that I know the manager of, and he let me check out an SKS that they bought, but are keeping in limbo for another week due to state law. It is sporting an ATI Strikeforce that is missing some of the rail junk, and is priced right. $200 OTD.
I wanted to see if anyone has seen one like it. The scrubbed receiver does not appear to have an arsenal, triangle or otherwise, and the serial is nearly 100% obscured. It is a B-West import with the microscopic import stamp on the right side of the receiver. It closely resembles the 'quality' of a DP I recently saw in Idaho. It has a very roughly machined barrel, with ribbing akin to that of a T53 barrel (under the handguard). Even though the carrier has the correct serial (matching the trigger group and cover anyway) It has the lightening cut, and is obviously poorly cold blued. But it also has the unlightened FSB. It is missing the mag unfortunately, but has a Tapco. It also has a gawdawful bolt on AK-74 style brake, which distracted me from checking out the bayo lug situation....THAT thing will be removed promptly.
Now for the weirdest part, the rear sight leaf is very narrow, and has round barrel-like buttons. I am unsure about whether that was added later, and crimped tightly to make it appear normal. IIRC the distances were different too.
I had to leave as wifey was texting to pick her up from the dentist. It is certainly worth two bills as it will be my only (potential) mixmaster to bubba away at, so I can leave my matching ones the hell alone. (finally) :)
Then again, I could be getting myself into some oddball variant that I will be tempted to restore.
I called them later and asked for them to send me some detailed pics with the stock removed, a day later...and I am still waiting... >:D
Thoughts?
Isn't there a Hunter or Sporter version that has the rear sight leaf like what you are describing? Do the increments only go up to 300 like the Saiga rear sights do?
Quote from: Greatguns on November 14, 2014, 11:53:47 PM
Isn't there a Hunter or Sporter version that has the rear sight leaf like what you are describing? Do the increments only go up to 300 like the Saiga rear sights do?
Until they send the photos I won't know for sure on the increments, and I know the version you are talking about, but cannot find it on yoopers examples... I seem to recall them being different than what this has. It is nowhere near the quality of those commercial rifles either. It is quite crudely made...
The obscured serial/factory info is what is bugging me.
I am pretty sure it isn't a DP, and it doesn't have a cast gas block like I have seen on DP's. But the quality of the metal is unrefined to say the least. Another weird aspect is I believe it was a stamped trigger group, but it also matches the serial on the lightening cut bolt carrier. I recall the serial stamping being crude, but only the receiver seemed to be scrubbed. It is likely just a parts gun assembled before 922r, but the machining on the barrel has me wondering if this was a small run from a crummy factory. It is a curious lil thing. :)
I am just happy that a Metallica skateboard I have been lugging around for 27 years and just listed on eBay has already fetched the asking price of this beast...so it will be mine. 8)
I am gonna look around in the meantime for something similar as far as the leaf sight looks. I just hate that it will be six days before I can get her.
Sounds like a late gun, possibly scrubbed aswell. The rear sight sounds like an AK replacement to me. wink1
Kind of wondering too LC, that's why I asked about the increments. Although, as I mentioned, I do recall a commercial version with a similar sight. I have had a few late model SKSs that had the ribbed machining in the barrel. Of the three that come immediately to mind 2 of them were pinned barrels as well.
Polytech Hunter has a dif leaf with left/right adjustments, but its not how he described this one.
Polytech Hunter - Chinese SKS Guide (http://chinesesks.weebly.com/polytech-hunter.html)
After going to a lackluster gun show this morning, I went back to the shop and was able to crack her open and get a couple pics.
First of all, it is a DB, which explains the similarities to the DP I recently was eyeing. Among other weird things I noticed that it has an unusual BHO mechanism, and the ejection 'port' on the side of the receiver has a diagonal cut to it at the rear rather than the usual rounded off look. The RSB seems to be cast, and the sight leaf appears to be original to the RSB, I don't think a normal leaf would fit in it...although I could be wrong.
The milling on the receiver is so rough that it almost appears to be cast from the inside, although it does lack the pins present on those as well...the outside looks much nicer. I initially thought it was scrubbed, but it was just grimey as hell, and was a grease smear over the serial. The only non matching part I could see was the bolt carrier...I didn't check the gas system, as it was on there pretty good, I was covered in grease...and they had a glass counter. nailbite1
I was mistaken about the BC matching... well anything....but at least that explains the early feature on a late gun.
I only was able to get a couple pics...The proof mark on the BC is a little odd, I haven't seen that before on a Chinese...not that it goes with the gun, I just found it interesting. There were also some stamps inside the receiver.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2269.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2269.jpg.html)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2267.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2267.jpg.html)
I looked up AK sight leaf pics and didn't find any quite like this one...although they are similar, this lacks the groove in the center, and the '3' is not in the same place you would expect to find them on the examples I found. I don't know anything about AKs at all though.
Looks like a "3" marked chinese leaf with an AK slider. The bolt hold-open is off a commercial gun... cant remember which one.
Is the BHO in the carrier like the BHOs used on one of the variants that take AK mags or are you saying it is the normal type just doesn't look the same?
Navy Arms type 84 carrier
(http://chinesesks.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/29221347/684507608.jpg)
Type 84 - Chinese SKS Guide (http://chinesesks.weebly.com/type-84.html)
Thanks Travis, that's the one I was thinking of. Just noticed it is a pinned barrel as well in JH's pics.
It isn't that BHO, it is in the same place as the normal one...just appears different.
I didn't notice it until I had fully reassembled it, I tried to snap a pic... but it wouldn't focus.
If all keeps going well, and money transfers happen from my Paypal account in a timely manner. It will be in my hands Thursday....and after what most likely will be the remainder of my Hoppes, I will get some decent photos up. :)
It's almost like the PO used Vaseline to lube with. It is going to require nearly as much cleanup as one still packed in cosmo. Unless whatever nation this came from used axle grease instead of cosmo.
Looks like I am going to be needing two unmarked factory mags...and one unmarked carrier. And another SKS to bubba. I think that the unmarked stock I have will work on a pinned barrel...if not, one of those too. Yet another spike bayo....geez, its cheaper to bubba than it is to restore properly! :(
It bugs me that I cannot seem to find any decent pics of DP/DB full guns...only the serials. This one also looks to be a DP that was converted to a DB with a strike to make the lower loop added afterward. AKBlue had a post somewhere inquiring about these, and several peoples DB's had this same altered stamp. The first DP I saw had four Chinese characters where this one only has one, if indeed that is what that mess is next to the DB...it didn't photograph well, but it almost looks like two characters stamped on top of each other.
Regarding the leaf, does that seem like an actual AK leaf? All the ones I saw photos of had that center groove, and they all seemed to have the 3 III or n <-cyrillic off to the left side of the groove, where the 3 on this one is in the center. Do they indeed swap out with a normal SKS leaf? The front sight is pushed all the way to the right so if it was replaced that could explain that. It looks to be in the same condition as the rest of the gun, so I suspect it has been on there for quite some time....if not always there. The PO also applied what looks like Liquid Paper to the sight post, and a dab of red paint or marker on top. thumb1
For the price, I guess I should only hope for it to shoot straight...and I have a winter project. :)
As issued by my pawnbroker...in an ATI Strikeforce that is so loose and sloppy it makes my ATI Ultralight from years ago seem as stable as if it were made out of an ivory tusk. Gouged in all the wrong places for fitment...I think this was Junior's first gun. Missing the bottom rail...bleh. It came off immediately.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2289.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2289.jpg.html)
Bubba even got after the muzzle brake, I dunno what this was supposed to accomplish...but it might explain why the front sight is driven all the way to the right. Since it isn't drilled concentrically and the gas vents were shortened, and considering it was about to fall off...it is gone, and I cannot decide whether to recycle it or send it to a landfill, so future archeologists can wonder WTF this guy was thinking too.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2290.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2290.jpg.html)
The obviously cast RSB, notice the hasty build quality with the pin sticking out...and the smushed ribbing on the barrel where the RSB was pressed over the barrel. Also notice the grinding over the barrel pin, that seems to have been retouched with paint...this is on both sides.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2304.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2304.jpg.html)
This is what got me all jaw dropped n stuff when I first saw it....apparently an AK style sight leaf. The uniform crud in the buttons and under the leaf compared with other oft neglected cleaning spots for the average schmo buying an SKS lead me to believe that it was possibly imported this way.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2306.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2306.jpg.html)
The heavily mutilated RSB and the underside of the leaf...the bluing is uniform over the whole base, apparently over the gouge job to make the AK sight leaf 'work'
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2309.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2309.jpg.html)
Y'know that weird square thing on the sides of the receiver on most SKS's? That is not present on this one, instead a hole that passes all the way through. Perhaps an unutilized section for select fire? I always wondered what those square things were on all my other SKS's, but never thought much about it until now.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2312.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2312.jpg.html)
The other side of the receiver, notice the pitting in the joint for the barrel. This does not appear to be due to corrosion, but from casting. More on that later.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2316.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2316.jpg.html)
Further evidence of casting...maybe? There are several places that show the granular nature of cast metal...but others that seem to be machined...particularly on the outside. The inside is very granular too...and considering the PO seemed to use some sort of heavy grease to lube the bolt, I don't think it is corrosion, especially since it only appears in places that don't seem to be milled.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2301.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2301.jpg.html)
This section of the receiver has me thinking that this was cast, and then later machined to tolerance...it is solid metal, but looks like several pieces pressed together.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2300.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2300.jpg.html)
The funky bolt hold open...never seen one like it, appears to also be possibly a cast part, or it could be filth...very well attached filth.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2299.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2299.jpg.html)
Notice the sharp angle for the ejection 'port'.... very angular compared to the rounded edges on the rest of my SKS's.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2296.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2296.jpg.html)
Ribbed machining on the barrel, this is present on all sections of the barrel other than the sections for the FSB, gas block and stock retainer...which are smooth as a baby's butt.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2294.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2294.jpg.html)
The ribbing tapers off the closer it gets to the FSB...and quite sloppily as well. This is unfortunate, since it is the most visible portion of the barrel when in a stock.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2292.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2292.jpg.html)
It is weird isn't it?
The PO jammed the replacement handguard in so tightly, it was nearly impossible to remove...i finally pried it off, but not without damaging some of the ribbing on the barrel. Turns out, bubba didn't own a file, so rather than fitting the handguard, he just bashed the bastard right on in...didn't even bother replacing the pin. (Luckily, I had a spare)
I couldn't stand the shoddy nature of the ATI stock, so I put her in the stock that came on my other B-West, a 64 /26\ spiker that is currently rockin' a Ram Line. The 64 was hacked away at to allow for this to work on an unserialed replacement stock. I tried installing this same stock on a pinned barrel I already had, no dice, but it works nearly perfectly on this one....had the recoil lug not been ground a tiny bit to fit the 64 it would fit perfect. This thing seems to be out of spec in many locations....although, the gas tube and piston are from different guns :(
The receiver cover is matching but loose as a goose, so much that I would suspect to hear rattling with every shot. I also have crappy eyes, and based on the mess that the irons are on this thing...I figgered I would try one of the two receiver cover mounts I previously had gotten overzealous with the file on, and wouldn't come close to holding still on any of my other carbines....lo and behold, an hour later of continuing to file on a POS NC Star tri-mount...it is snug as a bug. Considering how much I had to file an already overfiled junk cover, I feel as if the entire gun is so suspect to being out of spec even for an SKS, finding well fitting parts will be quite a chore.
The bolt carrier was also touched by bubba, it is from an early gun...obviously mismatched...and very, very poorly cold blued.
I am currently looking for scrubbed or new...a slab side bolt carrier, a couple of factory mags...and a stock that might fit a butchered /26\ that is also unserialed. She is currently sporting a Yugo bayonet handle, until I can get a proper one....I probably ought to get another bayonet assembly also for the spike I stole for her from my bubba platform SKS....as I know I will want to dress her proper again someday.
Here is what she is looking like with a borrowed stock, bayo, and mag....and with the tactikillah scope mount instead of the rattlebox the original is....with a ridiculous scope.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2320.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2320.jpg.html)
If she shoots worth a damn, I will be happy...you don't usually find SKS's for this price anymore, at least SKS's that don't require the shooter to be up to date on his tetanus shots.
I like to think I have done a fairly decent job for one day in 'restoring' her...
I hope to have many years of fun with her...either shooting or restoring. Probably both.
I really enjoyed your write up. Thanks for sharing. Interesting looking rifle. I have never had he pleasure of owning a DP or a DB
That's a neat one Justin! I'm having a hard time deciding if all the weird things add up together, or if you just have a big time bubba special. I'm thinking this thing was simply built weird (maybe minus that AK sight). The one that really gets me is this one:
Quote from: Justin Hell on November 21, 2014, 11:08:31 PM
Y'know that weird square thing on the sides of the receiver on most SKS's? That is not present on this one, instead a hole that passes all the way through. Perhaps an unutilized section for select fire? I always wondered what those square things were on all my other SKS's, but never thought much about it until now.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2312.jpg)
That absolutely boggles my mind! The square piece is a piece of hardened keystock. It performs one super important function: when the bolt locks in battery, that square edge is what holds the bolt forward in battery. It, along with the angled portion at the bottom back of the bolt most certainly determine proper headspacing.
Could you do me a favor? Take some good photos of the inside of the receiver with the bolt in battery and let me know what that bolt is actually locking against. How much play does the bolt w/o the carrier in place actually have when it's in battery?
At first blush I don't think it's a cast RSB...at first I thought it's what I called a 'mid' on the survey, it's definitely not an early. Then I saw the side with the gas tube takedown lever and it really looks like a late, just cut with a dull butter knife:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/examples/rear_sight_block_late.jpg~original)
Maybe the orange peel effect is from heavy pitting, or it may truly be cast and was made from a completely different mold than what we've seen before?
It's really a neat find! thumb1
Pretty interesting...... for a cast-rifle. thumb1
I'm with RM, what on gods green earth is the bolt locking against? :o :o :o
The plot thickens...it appears as if the hole is supposed to have a pin going through it....right where the keystock would be. Is this even safe to fire I wonder?
I compared it to a 78 /26\ and boy is there a lot different going on under the hood with this one. Not being particularly aware of what exactly goes on in there I welcome any advice. I seem to remember someone doing a animation of how the bolt system works...but I have no idea where to find it. Stupid lack of search functions...there. There does seem to be some banging around in there which might explain the replacement bolt carrier. It appears almost like someone fired it without the recoil spring in place once....if that is even possible. There are a couple dings in the back of the receiver that seem to indicate something going wrong at some point...but it could of happened when they were 'fine tuning' the internals.
I did find that this has dead rock solid neutral engagement, and it seems as if it may have had a trigger job, although I don't see any obvious replacement parts...but it is smooth as I have ever felt on an SKS. Dropping the buttstock firmly on the ground a several times didn't get the hammer to drop, so I have that going for me. :)
I really need to get this thing super cleaned up, it is still really grimy internally. The pin rattles, but not enough for my comfort...and I gotta strip the stupid cold bluing off the bolt carrier.
I must say, I am pretty convinced that the RSB is cast...of all things on here. It is strange, I don't think the DP I saw was, but the gas block certainly was. Its been a few months, I also fear calling to see if it is still there...as I have run out of skateboards to sell. chuckles1
The adventure continues....
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2373.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2373.jpg.html)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2372.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2372.jpg.html)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2371.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2371.jpg.html)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2368.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2368.jpg.html)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2367.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2367.jpg.html)
Quote from: Justin Hell on November 22, 2014, 09:04:35 PM
The plot thickens...it appears as if the hole is supposed to have a pin going through it....right where the keystock would be. Is this even safe to fire I wonder?
I think we need to get to the bottom of this before you even think about firing this one Justin!!!!
With the bolt, magazine, and trigger in the gun, but receiver cover off, push the bolt forward as far as it will go into battery, then press down on the top of the bolt (this is what the bolt carrier does when it moves forward the last 1/2" or so). While still pressing down, try to pull the bolt back out of battery. If it moves more than 5 or 10 thousandths, then you've got a serious problem.
This is very scary.... even if the headspace is set and its "supposed" to be this way.
Looks like that shelf is cast in for that purpose. At the far left in pic 2...
Kind of like a pre-stamped last ditch style construction. Prototype perhaps?
Right... looking at the orientation of the disconnector, it does look like its dependent on the cast receiver body itself. Wow. Even milled and tempered receivers have a hardened keystock.
To me.... this is over the moon scary.
What is really scary is looking at the tip of the ejector in the 5th pic... I believe it has been shot a few times!
I could picture them moving to stamped construction as an "improvement" over this design, if the aim was to save manufacturing cost.
Odd that such a beast would get exported though...
Quote from: running-man on November 22, 2014, 09:14:21 PM
Quote from: Justin Hell on November 22, 2014, 09:04:35 PM
The plot thickens...it appears as if the hole is supposed to have a pin going through it....right where the keystock would be. Is this even safe to fire I wonder?
I think we need to get to the bottom of this before you even think about firing this one Justin!!!!
With the bolt, magazine, and trigger in the gun, but receiver cover off, push the bolt forward as far as it will go into battery, then press down on the top of the bolt (this is what the bolt carrier does when it moves forward the last 1/2" or so). While still pressing down, try to pull the bolt back out of battery. If it moves more than 5 or 10 thousandths, then you've got a serious problem.
It doesn't move even a smidge. I looked through the pin hole and saw no bolt poking in the way either. It rests solid when pushed down on the metal directly in front of the interrupter. I cannot fathom what that 'missing' pin would actually be reinforcing. The only metal it would contact would be either side of the receiver, the bolt hammering into the metal both above and behind it, seems as if it would be pointless. Perhaps it is a window more so than a pin hole? Kind of like the windows on trigger groups? I could see the shadow of the edge of the bolt disappear completely flush with the top of the hole...as far as I can see anyway.
I took a peek at Yoopers and saw that indeed one of the examples of a cast receiver is a DB, but my serial predates it by either two years or 2 million guns...depending on what consensus is regarding these today. :)
I did also notice there is a T proof mark on the back of the bolt that I hadn't noticed, also...the serial is upside down compared to my other Chinese bolts too. It seems everywhere I look, I get distracted by one weird thing...only to discover another.
My wife is chiming in in the speculation department, wondering if these were only intended to be training rifles...using the low powered training ammo like we have seen from Europe. Has any training ammo from China ever surfaced? It would seem as if leftover parts and/or stuff that isn't up to spec would be fodder for cheap trainers. Considering nobody has ever nailed down any proof of the Bangladesh/Pakistan connection to previous speculation...and that the Chinese character translates to 'Brigade', while no reference to Type 56 is found on them, maybe they didn't cut the mustard to be official T56's...and were relegated to light duty? The threat of a cast
ANYTHING having a catastrophic failure in the field seems a bit risky.
Also, on considering the lack of the pins on mine vs. the cast example at Yoopers...it is also sporting a threaded barrel whereas this one is pinned...perhaps the pins were there to hold the barrel lug in place rather than relying on the threads potentially stripping under stress in the cast receiver vs. the hardened barrel material. With this being a pinned barrel, the weakness of threads mushrooming are bypassed. I don't know how much I trust a pin any more than threads...but, part of the fun is in the speculation until something starts making sense. :)
In the realm of it being a prototype, perhaps...but I would be more inclined to think it is more of a link in the evolution of how to cheaply and quickly make these, and maybe the progression towards pinned barrels? All I know is now I have another SKS I don't consider a shooter...at least the pristine Cherry's Yugo is something that I would feel safe firing.
But on that note, as filthy as this thing is the PO must have put an awful lot down the pipe, considering the gas system had obviously never been tampered with since its haphazard installation...but the barrel had been kept clean...the piston looked like the inside of a bong stem. I got it as clean as I could, but this is gonna require chemical intervention. However unsafe it may seem, she has taken a pounding since being stateside.
Scariness aside, this is a really neat gun Justin! thumb1
The hole going through where the square keystock would normally go...is it drilled in such a way that the side of the hole creates the edge where the rear end of the bolt would touch in your photo 2?
They were definitely experimenting with design improvements with this gun. I'm liking it more and more, the deeper we delve into it! I'd be scared as hell to shoot it, but I do like it!
Edit: Ahh I see you looked through the hole and saw the shadow of the edge of the bolt disappear...I'd agree that it's likely some kind of window. A pin pressed in that spot just doesn't make any sense... :-X
Where did you get "brigade" from? This actually looks like a dif character then the ones we have documented. Most of the other known characters stanslate to colors. Can you get a better pic?
Quote from: Justin Hell on November 22, 2014, 11:30:39 PM
Quote from: running-man on November 22, 2014, 09:14:21 PM
Quote from: Justin Hell on November 22, 2014, 09:04:35 PM
The plot thickens...it appears as if the hole is supposed to have a pin going through it....right where the keystock would be. Is this even safe to fire I wonder?
I think we need to get to the bottom of this before you even think about firing this one Justin!!!!
With the bolt, magazine, and trigger in the gun, but receiver cover off, push the bolt forward as far as it will go into battery, then press down on the top of the bolt (this is what the bolt carrier does when it moves forward the last 1/2" or so). While still pressing down, try to pull the bolt back out of battery. If it moves more than 5 or 10 thousandths, then you've got a serious problem.
I took a peek at Yoopers and saw that indeed one of the examples of a cast receiver is a DB, but my serial predates it by either two years or 2 million guns...depending on what consensus is regarding these today. :)
Have a look farther down that page at the 0141 from Ray Pizzino. It has the same cut on the right side, although there are no pics of the side of the receiver with the wood off to see if the square lug is present or not.
I actually didn't investigate the character at all, my bad.... :-[
I was just going by what I could dig up on these on old gunboards and things posted elsewhere.
AKBlue and others were trying to get somewhere with these, but if this is a different character who knows.
I cannot get my camera to dig the light with either a flash or flood lights...so this is the best pic I have, it looks like a pointy D on the left of a triangly thing with a point on top, over a fancy pi symbol on the bottom if that helps. If the sun every comes out again, perhaps I will fare better outside in the daytime.
The DB and character seem to be directly in line with each other vs the serial, and are struck about as lightly...I think it is a stamp for both. It also looks like a proper B vs a double struck flipped P like many others appear....
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2381.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2381.jpg.html)
Yeah.... I dont think we have that one. We need a clear pic.
Arsenal Stamps - Chinese SKS Guide (http://chinesesks.weebly.com/arsenal-stamps.html)
Yup, very tough to get photos of those Chinese characters indoors Justin.
I'm far from Chinese fluent, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. Here are a few of the easier characters I've "translated" with google translate, I'm guessing it's none of these?
五六式 = Wǔliù shì. Translates to: "5 6 Type"
公安 = gōng ān. Translates to: "Security Forces"
精度枪 = Jīngdù qiāng. Translates to: "Accuracy Gun"
延 = Yán. Translates to “Delay, Extend, Prolong, Postpone, or Invite”
吉 = Jí. Translates to “Lucky”
丹 = Dān. Translates to: "Red, Cinnabar, Pellet, or Powder”
白 = Bái. Translates to: “White, Showy, Arctic, Blank, Clear, Plain”
Edit: We now think we know what these singular symbols are really representing in the DB/DP guns. See http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=1002.0 for more info.
It is not any of those characters, nor any of those listed on the guide. Hooray...deeper we dig!
After I watch the Browns game tomorrow...provided I can see through the tears of joy or despair...I will try shoot another better pic.
Here are another couple of attempts on that new Chinese character...a bit better, but it is lightly struck, and I am unsure whether it is even a complete stamp. The closest I could get on Mobilefish translated to 'Beginning' but I wasn't entirely convinced my drawing ability gave it an accurate idea of what to think...and what it translated it to, didn't quite look right to me.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2401.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2401.jpg.html)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2406.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kissvids/media/DSCN2406.jpg.html)
No DB or PB on this one but thought I'd just post it over here for reference. If a pin were inserted in that receiver hole, the bolt would not drop fully into position. Expect it is for clearance or inspection maybe.
We've had hundreds, maybe thousands of SKSs come through our shop and this is the first one we've seen like this. We're used to seeing SKSs with the square shape "Locking Shoulder" semi-permanently installed in the receiver. It's what the Bolt drops down in front of and it controls the amount of head space. (as seen right near the center of this photo)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/benfm/lckngshldr_zps3691d5ed.jpg)
But we received a Factory 0221 barreled receiver from a customer and we noticed that on the sides of the receiver is a hole cross ways through it near where the Locking Shoulder should be. First thought was, "uh-oh! someone is trying to convert it from SA to FA." But then we realized that could not be the case and this hole was put there at the factory and would not allow FA function.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/benfm/0221-3_zpsb077a270.jpg)
Then we noticed that the receiver itself had an area machined and hardened that acted as the Locking Shoulder.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/benfm/0221-4_zps0d7398aa.jpg)
And while we've seen screwed in barrel models and Chinese Pinned In models, we had never seen one that was a screw in barrel and had 2 vertical pins through the receiver and barrel threads. (apparently 3mm pins)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/benfm/0221-1_zps57c9d192.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/benfm/0221-2_zpsf1c070e2.jpg)
Questions:
Are Factory 0221's the only ones mfg'd this way? Apparently not as we see an 0220
Are all 0221's made this way?
Is this some sort of rarity that would increase it's value?
It's understandable about the Locking Shoulder actually being a part of the receiver but don't know why they would install 2 vertical cross pins in a screwed in barrel.
Hey ben, good catch!
We have been seeing a whole array of configurations with these cast steel receivers. Everything from pinned and threaded, standaed threaded, to standard pinned. Even normal pinning methods as well as the two vertical. In my mind, I'm seeing all these [block] style arsenals are likely all the same location and what a busy facility it was. Stamped guns and cast guns were really pushing the envelope in reguards to major design/manufacturing processes and the one thing they all have in common is the [block] type "arsenal" stamp.
Value?.. I have seen quite a few cast receiver guns lately now that we know what to look for. They are not nearly as rare as the sheet matal guns, but I would say in original un molested condition these cast receivers should command a $100 or $125 premium over a standard non /26\ rifle of the same erra.
That non keystock locking lug receiver is a real strange and unique characteristic of the cast guns!
The other gun you showed is an interesting critter also.... looks scrubbed?
Justin, that is a new one me thinks. Gonna try to find out what it means?
Took one of the vertical cross pins out and see no evidence of threads. Guess they turned the shank, pressed it into the receiver, and pinned it twice.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/benfm/0221-5_zps5fbfd985.jpg)
The first one shown is more than scrubbed! :( Dallas area cops, maybe Garland, did their thing on it. We used it for a while to test trigger tunes but found a better way. (would you believe ATF forced me to enter this into my log book?) ::)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/benfm/dangcops_zps353124df.jpg)
Very interesting! Thanks for the info Ben, I will uodate the chinese sks guide accordingly. thumb1
Dang...and I just posted on the other thread at the other place about my theories about the pinned, yet lugged barrels. No evidence of threads blows that out of the water.
I thought that perhaps the threads were drilled out and the pins were there to anchor the hardened metal of the barrel with more surface area on the softer receiver metal...with the threads only being there to guide it in, but the pins to make it a permanent install.
I would think that under fire, the cast metal threads would eventually begin to mushroom vs. the hardened steel of the barrel.
I can't believe the ATF would make you register that portion of receiver as a firearm Ben...that's just nuts!
Good stuff Ben. I've long suspected that they reused 'incompatible' components at the smaller low production shops, because you see parts that really don't belong in a certain time period on a gun.
Here's one for example that popped up on gunboards a while back.
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/2314650_left_center.jpg~original)
/316\ factory. I've always assumed pressed & pinned barrel because all the other /316\s are traditional pressed & pinned, but this one sports an originally threaded receiver (notice the telltale 2 as the barrel match #). Now I'm not sure anymore. Maybe it is still a threaded barrel, but they just took off the lug to get it to index correctly to the non native receiver and the pin is there to keep it indexed since now they don't have a lug to tighten up against. Maybe it is pressed & pinned though and they inserted a sleeve after they machined out the threads on the receiver to take up the excess space. The big difference easily seen between the two is that they turned most of the meat on the short lug down on this one. It's interesting that they did this as the RSB is an early style. If it was pressed & pinned, there should have been plenty of clearance to leave the lug unmachined and just take off the threads as long as the flats were indexed correctly.
Quote from: running-man on January 24, 2015, 12:55:16 AM
/316\ factory. I've always assumed pressed & pinned barrel because all the other /316\s are traditional pressed & pinned, but this one sports an originally threaded receiver (notice the telltale 2 as the barrel match #). Now I'm not sure anymore. Maybe it is still a threaded barrel, but they just took off the lug to get it to index correctly to the non native receiver and the pin is there to keep it indexed since now they don't have a lug to tighten up against. Maybe it is pressed & pinned though and they inserted a sleeve after they machined out the threads on the receiver to take up the excess space. The big difference easily seen between the two is that they turned most of the meat on the short lug down on this one. It's interesting that they did this as the RSB is an early style. If it was pressed & pinned, there should have been plenty of clearance to leave the lug unmachined and just take off the threads as long as the flats were indexed correctly.
That'd be my guess
Was at a gun show today and saw another sks with the same ak rear sight. I know that it was a pinned barrel…but then the guy said he wanted $900 for it I put it back on the table.
Has a determination been made on these odd ducks with the ak rear sight?
John Galt
Just the Chinese using up whatever is available I guess. Sorta like yhe few rifles found with a t63 bayo and no other modifications to accommodate fitment.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on March 28, 2015, 03:55:45 PM
Just the Chinese using up whatever is available I guess. Sorta like yhe few rifles found with a t63 bayo and no other modifications to accommodate fitment.
+1
$900?!?!
Either that guy is completely nuts or I need to buy a safe.
If the bore of an excellent condition SKS was lined with platinum instead of chrome, I still would balk at that price.
I found a leaf listed like that on eBay, and its only about an hour drive away....neat thing is, it only has three distances marked on the leaf, is supposedly for an SKS, and has the graduations like it normally would....on BOTH sides of the leaf. I would get it, but since discovering that mine is actually serialed to the gun, and the RSB itself is so crooked that it could have been carved out of a bar of soap with a hot knife....I won't buy it....it won't make a bit of difference using the irons. :(
It is interesting to say the least....
SKS Rear Sight Assembly Vintage Military Rifle Parts | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/311325660221?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
It is kind of neat finding out that more of these existed....was it a DB or DP?
To tell you the truth, I don't remember if it was DB or DP. When the words "$900" hit my ears, my brain shut off!!!
It had a really brown (almost paint) stock. I told him it was a $300-$350 gun. That is when he said that was for the sks and 900 rds of wolf ammo. I said that makes the deal worth $575 max. He said that "we can't talk turkey at that price".
I think he was in love with the gun. I'm sure I will see him/it again. I will be ready to hear $900 and look more closely.
John Galt
If you see the dealer frequently...I am sure you will see it again....at that price he either knows it is a rare oddball or is off his rocker. Likely the latter if he isn't on the boards already....and I don't think that price is anywhere realistic for what likely is best not to fire. The cast parts on mine have kind of kept me at bay, along with the weather to fire it. It has been like summer here for the last few days, and I have been tempted. I have to admit though...I still haven't cleaned the thing yet.
Mention interest in saving some history for what might be a somewhat rare gun and see if he will let you take some pics. I would love to see it. I have only seen one DP, and my DB...both of very interesting construction. It kind of kills me that Lone Eagle from the other board had a DP....he lives a mile from me....and sold it a couple years ago before I met him. The goofy construction of these really intrigues me. It would be really cool if a batch of these popped up in the northwest and I can locate more of them to investigate. They are so darn funky. :)