fart1
oooh... Love the video evidence. thumb1
Perhaps a merger of the two IC thread OPs...... I see good info on the original thats not covered in this one.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 19, 2019, 10:02:06 PM
oooh... Love the video evidence. thumb1
Perhaps a merger of the two IC thread OPs...... I see good info on the original thats not covered in this one.
Good idea, definitely are some extras in the original post
I don't remember seeing anything other then one type of laminated stock on these rifles, and they are unmistakably Russian stocks. I'm also reminded of M08s stock that shows a clear Russian refurb stamp. Im also unsure of the PLOs ability to refurb the guns to mint condition like observed in the examples found with the norinco addition to the stamp. Also, CAI was importing from all over the world and the norinco marked guns are clearly from a different batch all together. RM may be able to help, but I believe the fed regulations of adding the maker/origin of the rifle to the import stamp was added at some point in time after the known 2 early types seen in this post. Think about the identical stamps found on Romanians with the addition of the 'Cugir' text.
I've never held a mystery laminate personally, but I've been told that they have much thinner stocks, no marks & I have seen pics. There's always the possibility that some were replaced with russian laminate stocks later on. They could all be Russian though, who knows.
Carbine's Arabic marked one has the Norinco stamp, so I don't think they're from a different batch..
Could be that they started to apply the maker to the stamp at the tail end of the second IC batch and then received the new ones from china shortly after and thus having the same stamp.
I would be in the same camp and agree if it were not that ALL new condition ICs have the norinco stamp from what I have seen.
Good stuff Worm, lots to think over for certain.
I think I'm with LC on the stocks though. The only other laminates I know of (that aren't NK or EG stocks...which these clearly aren't) are the original Chinese laminates on the 11 mil /26\s that are far different than your run of the mill Russian laminate. It would be nice to see a full set of views of one of the thinner wrist stocks and see what exactly is different and whether defining features like the solid block behind the bayo slot and the second crossbolt are indeed present on it.
I wonder if it could be that the PLO took used Russian stocks, sanded them to within an inch of their life thinning out the wrist and removing the S/N, slapped some heavy red varnish on them haphazardly and then utilized them. This would explain the mods to the bayo slots too as if they didn't know what style of gun it was going to go back on to they would have performed the mod on a jig where they could zip through them as quickly as possible.
Nice work all in all! thumb1
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 19, 2019, 10:33:19 PM
Could be that they started to apply the maker to the stamp at the tail end of the second IC batch and then received the new ones from china shortly after and thus having the same stamp.
I would be in the same camp and agree if it were not that ALL new condition ICs have the norinco stamp from what I have seen.
Good points
Quote from: running-man on February 19, 2019, 11:37:19 PM
Good stuff Worm, lots to think over for certain.
I think I'm with LC on the stocks though. The only other laminates I know of (that aren't NK or EG stocks...which these clearly aren't) are the original Chinese laminates on the 11 mil /26\s that are far different than your run of the mill Russian laminate. It would be nice to see a full set of views of one of the thinner wrist stocks and see what exactly is different and whether defining features like the solid block behind the bayo slot and the second crossbolt are indeed present on it.
I wonder if it could be that the PLO took used Russian stocks, sanded them to within an inch of their life thinning out the wrist and removing the S/N, slapped some heavy red varnish on them haphazardly and then utilized them. This would explain the mods to the bayo slots too as if they didn't know what style of gun it was going to go back on to they would have performed the mod on a jig where they could zip through them as quickly as possible.
Nice work all in all! thumb1
It would be good to compare them ourselves. It would be great if I had one in front of my face right now but the only ones for sale currently are way out of my price range.
I’ll see if I can dig up pics of the comparison. & Thanks!
Also, not sure why but I wasn't able to post the youtube links without them completely blanking out after posting, so I had to add a character to them for them to post. Are vids not allowed on here?
Looks like the video embedder is acting up for some reason. LC may be able to troubleshoot it and get it working again as he set it up. thumb1
Quote from: running-man on February 19, 2019, 11:56:27 PM
Looks like the video embedder is acting up for some reason. LC may be able to troubleshoot it and get it working again as he set it up. thumb1
thumb1
I think the vid embedder needs updating.
good read, enjoyed the pics too. thanks for taking the time Worm, well done. thumb1
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 20, 2019, 09:04:01 AM
I think the vid embedder needs updating.
thumb1
Quote from: carls sks on February 20, 2019, 09:17:55 AM
good read, enjoyed the pics too. thanks for taking the time Worm, well done. thumb1
Thanks ;)
Vids work now. thankyou1
Would it be possible that the laminates that are thinner could be Russian replacements intended for use with 49s at refurb?
With regard the the 9m /26\s those were at the very end of the blade bayonet in Chinese production...by 9.1m(ish) they were spikes. Could it be that they got some stocks along with the original aid that were set up, perhaps experimentally by the Chinese...during the transition that could accomodate both? The Chinese could have been sitting on the laminates as well, forwarded to them along with the Russian parts they started with, and for whatever reason, opted not to use them. The laminates would seem like a viable candidate to be set up for both blade and spike, and remain strong.
This initial cache of parts, then would be spread out over the years with repairs as needed. I suspect they had as much fun getting various stocks to fit a particular SKS as we do here...even with the crossbolt in the proper place. This could further shuffle up the mix of stocks sent by China. This would make a little sense out of the out of place stocks here and there.
Heck, perhaps the initial aid partially was the clean up of the blade/spike transition? Just a WAG...seems like it might fit the timeframe. :)
I've got a 12M series /26\ with all the IC hall marks, CAI import, blued bolt, dual cut laminate. It's numbers matching and in great condition. PAX
Quote from: Worm on February 19, 2019, 08:40:53 PM
The barrel stamped & usually aligned,
‘ CAI.ST.A.VT
SKS 7.62 CHINA ‘
(Note the primary difference; “A” instead of “ALB”) imports I am no longer convinced were from any Arab nation as I have never seen one with distinct enough Arabic features. Completely different batch of well used guns, but could be mistaken for the other batch due to import mark similarity. Maybe they are from the Middle East, there’s no telling with most well used SKS’s, but nothing has given me any striking inclination that they are. I’d be more than willing to change my mind if presented with photo evidence to suggest otherwise. I have, however, observed enough of these to definitely believe they were from a conflict region though, as heavy use is usually apparent.
Incorrect import mark:
(http://imgdump4.novarata.net/image.uploads/05-02-2019/original-790e5f8fff66faa1123515750bf901ea.jpeg)
My "G"7544 has the "ST A." import mark and the sand caked between the stock and action, with other signs of being at least carried in a sandy environment.
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/44a67c3bec901a9ff0cb607ef4978f9c.jpg)
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/f9183dde3382fc7bc330fc1c216e10bf.jpg)
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/b77d16aab8ea4a42a09b5a02e952feba.jpg)
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/5bc52b611b8539f34a97c89533faafa4.jpg)
Gonna show my ignorance here.
Does IC mean Israeli Capture?
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 21, 2019, 01:40:11 AM
Vids work now. thankyou1
Awesome
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on February 21, 2019, 09:32:36 AM
My "G"7544 has the "ST A." import mark and the sand caked between the stock and action, with other signs of being at least carried in a sandy environment.
Is that a G letter series? just more evidence that perhaps we were right about these back in the day, that they are ICs. I forgot how many of these were caked in sand inside the stock just as the "ALBs" are commonly found. My old (and very well worn) 8 mill with that import mark also had sand when i got it. If that's a letter series, and LC's is a V letter series with the same import mark, and my /666\ "ALB" has a V letter series trigger.. that seems like pretty compelling evidence that some letter series did make their way over there.. The ST."A" mark seems to be far less common than the typical ST."ALB" mark. Probably just a much smaller batch and were sorted differently.
Quote from: Larry D. on February 21, 2019, 01:37:22 PM
Gonna show my ignorance here.
Does IC mean Israeli Capture?
Yes. After the invasion of Lebanon in 82', Israel captured millions of $ worth of small arms from (primarily) the Palestinians. They started sorting & selling these abroad to militaries & commercial markets, and shortly after we started receiving these SKSs among a few other types of firearms that very obviously came out of the Middle East.
Quote from: Justin Hell on February 21, 2019, 02:42:29 AM
Would it be possible that the laminates that are thinner could be Russian replacements intended for use with 49s at refurb?
With regard the the 9m /26\s those were at the very end of the blade bayonet in Chinese production...by 9.1m(ish) they were spikes. Could it be that they got some stocks along with the original aid that were set up, perhaps experimentally by the Chinese...during the transition that could accomodate both? The Chinese could have been sitting on the laminates as well, forwarded to them along with the Russian parts they started with, and for whatever reason, opted not to use them. The laminates would seem like a viable candidate to be set up for both blade and spike, and remain strong.
This initial cache of parts, then would be spread out over the years with repairs as needed. I suspect they had as much fun getting various stocks to fit a particular SKS as we do here...even with the crossbolt in the proper place. This could further shuffle up the mix of stocks sent by China. This would make a little sense out of the out of place stocks here and there.
Heck, perhaps the initial aid partially was the clean up of the blade/spike transition? Just a WAG...seems like it might fit the timeframe. :)
Definitely possibilities. I just received a non-refurb Letter Series Russian today with a laminate stock, and that sucker is THIN.. thinner than the 50' refurb Russian laminate stock that I used to have. I think perhaps I was off base with the laminate stock thing, they probably are just Russian stocks.
Whether they were assembled as such prior to the Middle East or if the Middle Easterners did the bluing/laminate stock combo is still up for debate imo, though. The couple Norinco marked blued/laminate examples are in good shape, no doubt, but so are plenty of non-Norinco marked ones with the blued carriers. No different.. I think the full rebluing just made them look extra-unissued and if they didn't see much action afterwards, then they're obviously gonna look pretty clean. I mean, they needed replacement stocks.. so I'm confident they saw action prior to that configuration. Just about every example in its stock configuration with its bolt "in the white" is in worse shape than the blued ones. Not in
all cases, but in most based on the pics I've collected. Just screams refurb to me.
Because of Carbine's arabic marked example w/ the "Norinco" mark, I'm still leaning towards the blued/lamies being middle east refurbs, not some random Chinese configuration. But without more evidence, we'll likely never know for sure.
My issue with it is.... :o
It seems like 99% of the qualities that identifies them i.e the random painted parts, crazy sloppy shellac over sling hardware and crossbolts etc tells me their "refurb" abilities were minimal at best and every last one of them appears to have been used to the last drop. So the ones in Mint condition I find it extremely hard to believe they would have A: had the ability to make them look new new, and B: not have used them.
Meh, your 12 mill w/ arabic markings is in decent shape. The 12 mill I found with trench art still had its original stock & was in good shape. Plenty of blued carrier/lammy stocked ones are in good shape that don't have the norinco stamp. It's possible they weren't used a whole lot after a certain point, or, maybe the blued/lammy config' was something they did not long before we got them?
Idk, I don't think a reblue & slapping a spare stock on a gun would be that impossible to accomplish, though who knows, maybe?
I've only encountered two blued/lammies w/ the Norinco stamp, both of which were certainly in good shape, but a full reblue can do that.. The fact that we see Syrians in the more recent conflicts with blued carrier chicoms could also mean that they were responsible for the refurb process (if that's what it is), and they're certainly more capable of such a thing than the guerrilla PLO of the mid 20th century. And I have no doubt guns swapped between Labenon & Syria, probably multiple times before the 80's.
I just can't think of a reason the Chinese would rip the original stock off of "some" of the guns they planned on shipping, slap on an unnumbered Russian stock, reblue the gun & carrier & then ship em off to the same place the non-blued/lammys (obviously) went. Then again, China did some weird crap with SKSs, so you may very well be right.
Of course, we can guess all day long. Unfortunately there's just a lack of info when it comes to this and guessing is all it'll probably ever be, although it is a fun topic for discussion
I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that China had NOS laminates. I also don't think it would be much trouble for a state or faction to 'order' guns with blued bolt carriers.... I don't think the entire gun was reblued. I don't see why they couldn't have left /26\ with blued carriers and leftover russian stocks they had laying around. China likely received the stocks back when they received parts to make rifles with little stars on the receivers, and we know russian guns with little stars on the receivers came with laminated stocks.
Its been my opinion for years now since you and I hit this topic hard, that the laminated variation with blued carriers were likely purchased that way by Syria, the aided guns to the PLO were standard. From there its only natural they intermingled as you outlined.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 21, 2019, 09:38:30 PM
I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that China had NOS laminates. I also don't think it would be much trouble for a state or faction to 'order' guns with blued bolt carriers.... I don't think the entire gun was reblued. I don't see why they couldn't have left /26\ with blued carriers and leftover russian stocks they had laying around. China likely received the stocks back when they received parts to make rifles with little stars on the receivers, and we know russian guns with little stars on the receivers came with laminated stocks.
Its been my opinion for years now since you and I hit this topic hard, that the laminated variation with blued carriers were likely purchased that way by Syria, the aided guns to the PLO were standard. From there its only natural they intermingled as you outlined.
That certainly is a possibility, one that I haven’t thought about in a while. You do only see blued carriers in Syria & white ones in Palestine.
No telling what the Palestinians are toting around these days, but we keep seeing the laminated version in recent Syria conflict pics.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 21, 2019, 09:54:52 PM
No telling what the Palestinians are toting around these days, but we keep seeing the laminated version in recent Syria conflict pics.
Yep. And they're
definitely blued, too. That isn't some kind of rusty patina or anything. I actually collected a few more pics from videos where I saw them, but I lost everything a few months back. I mean, they were close up shots of dark purple carriers. It was identical to what we have. I should start watching Syrian videos again to try to find more. If only we could get a close enough video to see them serial numbers & factory marks!
(https://yuhol.rs/freedomfight/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/syria-rebels.gif)
(http://rs181.pbsrc.com/albums/x86/thirsty4stalin/THeSks.jpg?w=480&h=480&fit=clip)
(https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/unnamed.jpg)
(http://www.sott.net/image/s6/126585/full/int_syria_sniper_1203.jpg)
Yep. Those are the originals we found. Clearly blued.
I found more in videos that I took snapshots of. Lost em though
Is there a particular range that the ones with dual bayo slots appear in?
If the Chinese were sending aid guns, it wouldn't surprise me if they just cleaned house with whatever they had on hand...perhaps some guns were stocked normally, others used up laminate stocks....some modified to handle both bayonets of either flavor. It seems like I have seen more than a few that might have a spike ferrule and a blade bayonet is on it. Was that a common thing to see on some of these?
Quote from: Justin Hell on February 21, 2019, 11:36:44 PM
Is there a particular range that the ones with dual bayo slots appear in?
If the Chinese were sending aid guns, it wouldn't surprise me if they just cleaned house with whatever they had on hand...perhaps some guns were stocked normally, others used up laminate stocks....some modified to handle both bayonets of either flavor. It seems like I have seen more than a few that might have a spike ferrule and a blade bayonet is on it. Was that a common thing to see on some of these?
The two main ranges are within 9 & 12 mill /26\s, both which contain the regular stock configuration rifles & the blued carrier/double bayo cut lammy guns mixed throughout them.
I haven't come across any of these guns wearing the opposite bayo than they should, personally. Disregarding the rifles missing bayos, the 9s always have their blades, 12s always have their spikes, the oddballs outside of those ranges all have the bayos they're supposed to.
The laminated 12m I bought from Worm has the blued carrier and a blade cut laminate, however the stock didn't have the second cut for the spike. I had to make that cut myself.
https://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=690.msg8405#msg8405
It really does seem plausible that those stocks with the dual cut may have come along for the ride with the 9m surplus (I assume) It would be interesting to find out if my 9.1m spiker originally may have come with a dual cut stock. It came to the US in an unserialed replacement. It seems to me a hardwood wouldn't survive as long as a laminate as a dual cut. With the move towards the short lug, those odd laminates China likely had laying around became less and less likely to receive a home. With it being aid vs. a sale, it makes sense some oddballs were natural choices to send.
I have only seen one dual cut stock available for sale...likely from an IC. I want to say it was hardwood. Has anyone seen a 'normal' SKS come out of China with one from the changeover time frame? Were these blade cut with a spike channel added, or vise versa?
These are interesting beasts, very difficult to spot compared to others...and I daresay many if not most current owners likely don't know what they have...and when selling never include the crucial photos I suppose? :( I will have to keep an eye out to maybe snag one of these for a steal sometime. My letter gun project likely would garner a couple of views for folks looking out for one. Once I swap out the polished bayo for a matte one. In it's laminate, with a spare blued carrier...I kind of inadvertantly made a faux IC. :)
Best thing you can do is look for the import mark. If you can't see it & suspect it's an IC, ask for pics. Usually the seller will send you pics or tell you where & what the mark says. People definitely don't know what they have most of the time when it comes to these. I suspect most people would only know if they saw Arabic rack/unit marks. And even then, I don't wanna know how many Bubba has destroyed.
Here are three currently for sale. All a little too pricey, IMO. The synthetic stock one is their typical configuration you see these days. The other two are gems, but all are about $200 higher than I'm willing to pay. Just my opinion
https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/800557229
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/century-arms-rifles/century-arms-sks.cfm?gun_id=101162492
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/century-arms-rifles/century-arms-sks.cfm?gun_id=101161809
Interesting theory about the 9 mills w/ the double bayo cuts. I haven't personally seen any come here from China sporting double cut bayos in their stocks, or laminate, but then again I haven't looked very hard. Both Norinco marked (suggesting China export to US) blued carrier/double cut laminate guns I've seen were 12 mills.
I have never seen a double bayo cut on a hardwood. They've all been laminates on ICs as far as I know. Chinese hardwood & Russian hardwood as well as (numbered) laminate replacement stocks are common on them and all of those have been regular, one bayo cut.
One in the third link doesn't seem to be cut for the spike.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 22, 2019, 08:37:20 AM
One in the third link doesn't seem to be cut for the spike.
Yep, thanks for pointing that out. I probably should've mentioned that being it's the topic of our current discussion n' all.
Quote from: Worm on February 21, 2019, 04:13:08 PM
Awesome
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on February 21, 2019, 09:32:36 AM
My "G"7544 has the "ST A." import mark and the sand caked between the stock and action, with other signs of being at least carried in a sandy environment.
Is that a G letter series? just more evidence that perhaps we were right about these back in the day, that they are ICs. I forgot how many of these were caked in sand inside the stock just as the "ALBs" are commonly found. My old (and very well worn) 8 mill with that import mark also had sand when i got it. If that's a letter series, and LC's is a V letter series with the same import mark, and my /666\ "ALB" has a V letter series trigger.. that seems like pretty compelling evidence that some letter series did make their way over there.. The ST."A" mark seems to be far less common than the typical ST."ALB" mark. Probably just a much smaller batch and were sorted differently.
Indeed it is.
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/c60b9d7c8bcb5b0a807a155e71913a22.jpg)
It was a looong time ago I spotted the double cut stock...it very well could have been a laminate, and the double cut nature stood out in memory more so than what the type of stock was? It easily could have been a bubba too.
It seems as though if the 9ms didn't have them the dual cut wouldn't have anything to do with the transition necessarily, unless China was trying to use up the laminated (they may have had) on hand during the transition, didn't care for them...or didn't actually need them...and they ended up on the 12m series giveaways? The jump in millions kind of takes the wind out of the sails of the transition theory. Yet, if blued carrier sporting laminates did get exported to the US as new...it does seem as if they started that way rather than ended up that way via end user refurb.
It's both fun and frustrating to think about. :)
Quote from: Justin Hell on February 22, 2019, 10:02:28 AM
It's both fun and frustrating to think about. :)
That pretty much sums it up. Lol
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on February 22, 2019, 09:52:11 AM
Quote from: Worm on February 21, 2019, 04:13:08 PM
Awesome
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on February 21, 2019, 09:32:36 AM
My "G"7544 has the "ST A." import mark and the sand caked between the stock and action, with other signs of being at least carried in a sandy environment.
Is that a G letter series? just more evidence that perhaps we were right about these back in the day, that they are ICs. I forgot how many of these were caked in sand inside the stock just as the "ALBs" are commonly found. My old (and very well worn) 8 mill with that import mark also had sand when i got it. If that's a letter series, and LC's is a V letter series with the same import mark, and my /666\ "ALB" has a V letter series trigger.. that seems like pretty compelling evidence that some letter series did make their way over there.. The ST."A" mark seems to be far less common than the typical ST."ALB" mark. Probably just a much smaller batch and were sorted differently.
Indeed it is.
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/c60b9d7c8bcb5b0a807a155e71913a22.jpg)
I forgot those were G's. Letter series are awesome, especially IC ones
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 21, 2019, 10:42:23 PM
(https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/unnamed.jpg)
This guy's scope mount make me do a double take.
Quote from: Larry D. on February 22, 2019, 03:33:14 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 21, 2019, 10:42:23 PM
(https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/unnamed.jpg)
This guy's scope mount make me do a double take.
Lmao yeah, something's not right there.
(https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/scope-sks.jpg)
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 22, 2019, 07:08:18 PM
(https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/scope-sks.jpg)
He was the anti-aircraft division.
Quote from: Justin Hell on February 22, 2019, 10:54:46 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 22, 2019, 07:08:18 PM
(https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/scope-sks.jpg)
He was the anti-aircraft division.
LMAO!!!!!