LGS score. Other than the bayo, no overt signs of refurb. All levers (safety, cover pin, and rsb) are ETREMELY tight with no marring (yet) of the bluing on receiver or rsb from disassembly. Receiver well shows no signs of wear. Hammer face has no wear from fp strikes. Metal edges are still very sharp and unbeveled by use.
Non-chrome barrel bore. Early trigger. Early mag. Late bolt/carrier. Late cover lever. Stock looks like it has been minimally sanded, but many of the stamps are still present.
Barrel was filthy with some light putting near the chamber. Minor pitting on piston face too. Cleaned up the both and coated with RIG. Cleaning capsule was the only accesory that came with the rifle, and looks like it had may have never been taken out of the stock after being inserted upside down. (cap got stuck and kit could not be removed withough removing the butt plate). Soviet sling from gonebroker is already on the way.
Paid a tad out of my price range. TBPH, I no longer have any idea what is the fair price range on Soviet 45's - as Soviey prices seem to be all over the place for the past 1.5 years.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kr9rz8/20180706_141332.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cPc0sT)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fb1RXT/20180706_142754.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gGLye8)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fuEVsT/20180706_143159.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dEwzmo)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ivXpmo/20180707_073031.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nn1h6o)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kks0sT/20180707_071808.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cekLsT)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iLSiCT/20180707_073715.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dwNGXT)
(https://preview.ibb.co/b9ZzK8/20180706_134221.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nMsmz8)
(https://preview.ibb.co/e8QTCT/20180706_133332.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cxF6z8)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bXUS6o/20180706_143614.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ia9ie8)
More pics:
(https://preview.ibb.co/i69V98/20180706_141727.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hC9mhT)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eXHdwo/20180706_142514.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g5sBGo)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dERowo/20180707_063316.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kwfsNT)
(https://preview.ibb.co/c04mhT/20180706_142825.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jTbcp8)
(https://preview.ibb.co/m78q98/20180706_142612.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cNRMGo)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kVAFbo/20180706_141544.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eC53U8)
(https://preview.ibb.co/e8QTCT/20180706_133332.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cxF6z8)
(https://preview.ibb.co/noxiCT/20180707_070641.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jqTZK8)
Nice pickup BB! thumb1 Sure looks like a winner to me. I take it's a non-chrome lined bore since you found some pitting in there?
So the million dollar question is: I know you state it's a refurb in the title and the bayonet kind of weighs the scale toward that side, but could this gun be considered as-issued? I would say it's a distinct possibility because nobody knows exactly what this gun looked like when it left Tula in '51. Even though there is some clear sanding and refinishment on the stock with some of the stamps having been partially sanded out and the aforementioned blued bayonet, most every other aspect of this one looks pretty dang nice. When I catalogue it in the database, the excel macro will put it under the 'as-issued' category because I use an original stock with a proper finish, no rebluing, no refurb marks, no replacement parts, etc. to set this flag on each gun...and this one passes all of those tests.
One thing I might disagree with is that this is a 'transitional' gun. '50s yes. '52s certainly. '51s & 53's I can't think of anything that changed from the beginning of the run to the end in those two years except for maybe chrome lined bored in '51...but for all my data, I've got precious little on exactly when the bores began to be chrome lined. I always assumed '52, but heck, maybe it is a transitional feature in '51. :P
rm-
Very ineteresting points you raise! Thanks.
From what I make of it, then, this would be a late 1951 gun? Not transitional in the traditional sense, but more of an intra-transitional carbine?
The matching stock was the deciding factor behind this purchase, as I absolutely would have passed on it had it been force-matched-- especially for what I paid ($750 +55 tax/PICS).
I had also considered the 'as-issued' potential, but three traits in particular nudged me initially into the "lite refurb" camp: the blued bayo (at first I thought it was painted), the crown in-the-black, and what looks like the remnants of black paint (not bbq kind) on the butt plate.
Refurb or not? With the points you raise I can't say for certain. (I have often wondered if any of the Soviet Guns went through a non-arsenal "commercial refurb" --kind of like a MOLOT lite -- prior to export)
As impressed as I was with the condition of the matching stock (on what I thought was a refurb), I was less moved by the matching metal parts...that is until I got the rifle home and had a chance to disassemble it.
The stiffness/tightness of the safety, cover, and rsb levers struck me as very peculiar and possible indications of very limited to zero service use. The edges of the bolt, cover, and receiver interior are VERY VERY SHARP and un-beveled-- (cut my thumb just putting the bolt back in place). Given that the barrel and the piston head were only modestly pitted, my educated guesswork leads me to believe that this carbine may have been unissued when it came into the US. The absence of any arc-shaped lever wear on the RSB or right side receiver and near 100% bluing intact contribute to the sense that this carbine may have been unissued. Trigger is also very tight/heavy. Sear-to-hammer engagement is neutral as far as I can tell-- which is difficult becuase there is virtually NO take-up before breaking.
Are blued bayos original issue? I was under the impression that they were replacements just like the bbq blades, No?
Thanks, again.
When do we get a peek at the database?
EDIT: Yes. It's non-chrome plated.
Just realized I didn't post a photo of the butt plate.
(https://preview.ibb.co/mJdVsT/20180706_134916.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kk3wXT)
Does this alter the 'refurb vs. as issued' assessment at all?
nice find, just enjoy it. loving the furniture. thumb1
Very sweet pickup...but you did take it in the 'nads a little on the price...although my mind is having a hard time keeping up with the prices of SKSs of nearly any flavor lately.
Is the bayonet blued but has a flat appearance rather than a deep bluing that looks like it was dipped in that black oozy stuff from the X-Files? Often I see them for sale and since they don't look like mine (also from a '51) I thought perhaps some that folks consider blued were just BBQed refurb flat grey bayonets. I also see them pretty frequently with the ferrule nick...which doesn't seem very likely to happen with mine...whereas one I 'faked' that was a very fugly flat grey seems to get one just by looking at it.
After stripping many parts to the white for my Russian 49-50 conundrum project...they had a few different metal finishing methods...and at least two different BBQ paints. The metal used for the bayonets seems to have had a few different methods too...that are much harder to work with if you are trying to make them look nice again. The one I faked looks VERY close to my original blued one...but the paint and glaze finish cannot resist nicking on the ferrule. It touches up OK with a Sharpie though. rofl
Quote from: carls sks on July 07, 2018, 05:22:46 PM
nice find, just enjoy it. loving the furniture. thumb1
Roger. Wilco.
The plan was to get her zeroed out to 50-75yds with iron sights (that's as far my eyes are good for) with some boxer primed ammo. Probably PPU. Although I do have about 5 boxes of Lapua that I've been sitting on for about three years.
Think the plan will stand.
Quote from: Justin Hell on July 07, 2018, 05:28:54 PM
Very sweet pickup...but you did take it in the 'nads a little on the price...although my mind is having a hard time keeping up with the prices of SKSs of nearly any flavor lately.
No worries, I always wear a cup when I go to the shops and shows. Besides, the way 45's have been selling lately, I may be able to sell it for twice what I paid in about three months. (Not for sale).
Quote from: Justin Hell on July 07, 2018, 05:28:54 PM
Is the bayonet blued but has a flat appearance rather than a deep bluing that looks like it was dipped in that black oozy stuff from the X-Files?
I don't recall the x-files reference. But this looks like a deep bluing, but it has a softer, waxier feel to the touch than say the receiver cover.
Very nice! I don't think it's a ridiculous price, especially with the "as-issued" status debate and the current upward trend in SKS-45 prices you mention.
I always assumed "black bayonets" were sign of refurbishment too. However, I don't know what exactly this is based on. Is it lumping different types of "black" bayonets. Black painted bayonets seem like a solid refurb indication but are blued bayonets? Does only one set of bayonet bolt stake marks that are still aligned at bolt and lug indicate "as-issued"? It would to me.
Anyhow, if it were mine I'd probably call it a very light refurb based on our current knowledge, but I'd be very happy with it. thumb1
Yours must be the same as mine then...the pictures just don't show it. That is a pretty interesting way to describe it. chuckles1
The speculation on the variety of Russian blades is something of a goal to find the reality behind the story for me, I think the refurb concept probably came from painted ones...as it should have. The actual blued ones I am leaning towards believing were original to a time frame...but with all the refurbing it's a tall order to come to a conclusion.
One would think that they came first, since the spikes were blued, and all of the other Russian guns had blued bayonets before the SKS.... I would also think that the hard chromed ones came next, and as manufacturing practices simplified over time...the greys came last. The goldish ones are a bit of a mystery, but I suspect they were part of the evolution to the flat grey, but with a different treatment. When stripping BBQ parts to the white sometimes I would encounter a thin goldish layer before white.
Oh, and the black stuff from the X-Files was the crude oil like stuff that would crawl into the actor's eyes... My bayonet seems to be wet black stuff over one of the hard chromed ones....vs. the matte finish I see that might just indicate age...or paint.
It would have been nice if the Russians didn't shuffle things up so much, the early evolution of the SKS-45 is far more interesting to me than when/where China did things...because other folks are already much better at that. :)
Regardless, you got a pretty sweet gun there...better than I have ever seen available locally. The condition does warrant a few more bucks....and you still got it for the same price for a heavy refurbed 56 that has been the only Russian I have spotted around here in two years.
Boris- a very nice purchase, great condition. I always take out mine when I see somebody with a new posting and compare. Yours is by far better than mine. Mine does have hardwood stock and date, etc. but I had to lightly sand and refinish. Matching S/Ns. And of course being in Canada the magazine does not match. My question which may take running man to answer is that the arrow in the tula star is different than my 51. Mine has more shaft than yours. This may have been a change made in 51??
JustinHell: here's the best pic I've got of the blade.
(https://preview.ibb.co/mzTBz8/20180706_075445.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cjvrz8)
jstin2-- I'm definitely not qualified to comment on the changes in the Tula arsenal stamp over time.
I now own Six Soviet guns: two sneaks with Chinese covers. One 1955 with a date-only cover, one 1958 with the standard blank cover, and a 1954 Izhevsk.
So, this 1951 dated carbine is the first in my collection with a Tula stamp on the cover.
Interesting observation I probably wouldn't have noticed if you hadnt pointed it out.
Looking at photos again, I just realized that it also has a birchwood toe "extension" on the butt stock:
(https://preview.ibb.co/hMUbz8/20180707_220246.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c5776o)
I checked several of my SKSs( different years, I only have one 51) and your arrow is different from what I can see. It could have been something they had changed and then altered. Who knows, maybe one of a kind until another is found??
The 1952 dated cover in this photo looks like the one on mine (I think): https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/12/P1100014-1.jpg
Same with the 1955 dated coover in this photo (I think):
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/12/P1100015-1.jpg
I can't see the photos enlarged. What is needed is 51 examples. RM should have pictures. If need be I will post my 51 receiver cover.
Plenty of photos of 1951 covers on the googlesearch. Looks like the all have the longer shaft and the small feathers.
Maybe a change??
Thats a nice score and you did NOT pay too much ! Don't you live in Ca. ? Maybe im wrong but what a beautiful example of an American possessed SkS with a Hard Russian accent thankyou1 I say non referb.
Quote from: Direct Connection on July 08, 2018, 01:14:43 AM
Thats a nice score and you did NOT pay too much ! Don't you live in Ca. ? Maybe im wrong but what a beautiful example of an American possessed SkS with a Hard Russian accent thankyou1 I say non referb.
We have not moved back to Cali (yet). Plans to move keep getting pushed. Colorado, Oregon are possible too. With New Mexico in a very distant fourth place.
[Just in case, for the forseeable future, I'm no longer buying handguns with capacity over 10 rounds cry1]
I doubt we'll ever know for certain -- when I picked it up I thought I was getting a unique fefurb shooter. I still plan to get it zeroed soon, but I doubt I'll get this one out to the range after that.
Rm-
I think the crown is also blued and not painted. Does the data suggest that this is also a potential characteristic of original manufacture?
We have company over for most of the day, so I can't get the rifle out to take better photos until later.
Here are some pics for comparison to one I consider to be non-refurb.
Biggest difference I can see is the gold bayonet, which is still staked.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/51_tula_0021.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/51_tula_003.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/51_tula_0041.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/51_tula_007.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/51_tula_009.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/51_tula_006.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/51_tula_005.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/51_tula_004.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/51_tula_010.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/51_tula_0031.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/51_tula_002.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/51_tula_001.JPG)
Great looking 1951.
I've never understood how the staking marks indicate original vs. Refurb.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on July 08, 2018, 11:43:07 AM
Great looking 1951.
I've never understood how the staking marks indicate original vs. Refurb.
The bayonet has either been removed from the lug at some point in time, or it hasn't been removed.
But does removal obviate refurbishment or replacement of the bayonet. Or does it just mean t that it if as been removed at some point in its history?
Some folks have removed the bayonets from non-refurbs, for sure. Can't supervise them all!
Quote from: Boris Badinov on July 07, 2018, 04:16:40 PM
rm-
Very ineteresting points you raise! Thanks.
Are blued bayos original issue? I was under the impression that they were replacements just like the bbq blades, No?
Thanks, again.
When do we get a peek at the database?
EDIT: Yes. It's non-chrome plated.
That one has always bothered me. I think most collectors would say that Russian blued blade bayos are indicators of some type of replacement or refurbishment. There's no concrete proof of this though. For a bayo that is so easily swapped and typically not serialized, I often give a pass on this feature when I'm trying to wrap my head around whether a gun belongs in the as-issued category in the database.
Others say that the golden bayos (some type of chromate coating) are the true original bayos because so many are found on really nice looking guns with all other as-issued features. Again, no concrete proof of this but more concerning in my mind is that you typically don't see golden bayos on refurb marked examples...why is this?. Did the Russians chemically or mechanically strip each and every bayo at refurb to remove this coating? Did the Russians, when lightly refurbishing almost pristine guns simply toss a coat of finish on the stock and also coat originally bare bayos? dntknw1
As for the database, it's right here on my hard drive (and backed up in a couple places) What do you want to see?
Quote from: jstin2 on July 07, 2018, 08:47:19 PM
Boris- a very nice purchase, great condition. I always take out mine when I see somebody with a new posting and compare. Yours is by far better than mine. Mine does have hardwood stock and date, etc. but I had to lightly sand and refinish. Matching S/Ns. And of course being in Canada the magazine does not match. My question which may take running man to answer is that the arrow in the tula star is different than my 51. Mine has more shaft than yours. This may have been a change made in 51??
'51 covers come in many flavors, there is not a single change in the Tula arrow, but a multitude of them. I had these images posted a long long time ago, but the photobucket fiasco made that post unreadable. Here they are again (sorry about the large amount of photos), notice the hand stamped arrow of the first '52 in there...they didn't have this process standardized until well into production. It may be that multiple lines had multiple roll stamps that were each a bit different from each other. One of these days I'll compared known as-issued gun covers to their S/N's and see if a pattern is present. I remember looking into that briefly a while back and there seemed to be something going on with the shape of the stars, but I've not looked into it in great detail:
This set of photos is too large to be in the middle of this post. See: http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=4086.0
Guns like the OP's and M08's example make us think which is awesome. They also bring uncomfortable questions to the surface such as what exactly constitutes an "as-issued" SKS and the whole question of "non-refubished", "unfired", and "unissued". Unfortunately the things we don't know sometimes seem to outnumber the things we do.
- Do we know what the significance of a blued bayonet is vs. one in the bright vs. one with a gold chromate coating? Which ones could be considered original equipment and which ones are definite replacements?
- Do unbroken stake marks automatically = as-issued or conversely, do broken marks automatically = refurb? I've seen stake marks that line up perfectly and look pristine, yet I know they are not because 10 minutes before the bayonet was off the gun for cosmo cleaning.
- Why are the Tula acceptance marks on the right side of most as-issued stocks so worn down such that typically only half the stamp is visible? Same with certain marks around the crossbolt. Surely imprinting these stamps wasn't so difficult a step that the inspector only got half a stamp 80% time through 9 years of production.
- Do we know that a reblue automatically = a refurb or is there a conceivable situation where a gun was rejected for finish issues (maybe it didn't get degreased properly) and run through the tank a second time?
I think the OPs gun has many as-issued properties and at the same time I also think it shows definite signs of rebluing, a bayonet swap, and a very light refinish of the stock. Is it as-issued, perhaps a light refurb? Is M08's gun a possible light-refurb, a possible non-refurb? Heck If I know! :P They are both darn nice carbines though and the prices should reflect that as it should with all nice carbines. thumb1
Quote from: running-man on July 09, 2018, 02:47:07 PM
- Why are the Tula acceptance marks on the right side of most as-issued stocks so worn down such that typically only half the stamp is visible?
I ask myself this every time I see that mark!!!
My best guess is that the stamp isn't a finishing stamp. More likely it is a preliminary inspection stamp that is struck prior to final sanding and staining.
It could very well be. Here's the best example I have in all my photos, a Canadian gun with a very nice stock. Even with this one, I couldn't say 100% that this stock hasn't been refinished:
(https://preview.ibb.co/h8j47T/A5099_right_stock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n9fcST)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hULNu8/A5099_stock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cDzt1o)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eHDaE8/A5099_left_crossbolt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kTaoZ8)
I don't know that this is something we're ever going to know. Might be an enigma forever. dntknw1
Quote from: running-man on July 09, 2018, 03:53:49 PM
It could very well be. Here's the best example I have in all my photos, a Canadian gun with a very nice stock. Even with this one, I couldn't say 100% that this stock hasn't been refinished:
(https://preview.ibb.co/h8j47T/A5099_right_stock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n9fcST)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hULNu8/A5099_stock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cDzt1o)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eHDaE8/A5099_left_crossbolt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kTaoZ8)
I don't know that this is something we're ever going to know. Might be an enigma forever. dntknw1
My first impression of that stock is: if that's not as-issued then
as-issued simply doesn't exist. The matte appearance of the stampings, no evidence (at the resolution of the photo) of sanding, bits of flaking shellac.
It'd be nice to know exactly what all of the crossbolt and buttstock markings mean, but that seems unlikely to ever emerge from the basement archives for the OTK at Tula or Izhevsk :))