After cleaning, repairing, staining and carving out an old Norinco wood stock, I put the receiver/barrel into the stock. Previous owner said he’d never had a problem firing the gun.
Took the gun to the range and realized the bolt had problems. It would stick hard going rearward to load a round and didn’t always want to completely lock in the forward position. Fixed it by loosening the amount of torque on the added rail and scope mount.
Back to the range and the bolt is working well. However…now and then the trigger will not do what it’s supposed to do. Sometimes I’ll pull the trigger and it releases but no bang. Even more often, sometimes I can’t pull the trigger. It acts as if the safety is engaged when, in fact, it’s not.
The gun has a Murray’s firing pin job on it so I don’t think the FP is a problem. Maybe bad Wolf ammo. Fine, I can try other ammo.
But the inability to even pull the trigger is a problem. It will eventually go bang after I dance around by unloading rounds, engaging/disengaging the safety, releasing the magazine, reloading, playing with the safety…then bang at some point.
Seems like the safety is on when it’s not. Any ideas?
From what little bit of firing I was able to accomplish, I really like the gun (more than my AK actually). So it would be great if I can sort this guy out. Thanks in advance.
Sounds like the bolt is not fully closing, that could cause it not to fire.. have you cleaned everything, pulled the firing pin, checked and cleaned the chamber. Another dumb question, is the recoil spring in right, squiggly end up in the carrier?
Yep, the gun's been apart and thoroughly cleaned several times. Squiggly end of the spring is in the carrier.
The bolt used to have problems fully closing before loosening the scope mount. After that, the bolt seems okay as best I can tell. Funny thing is the trigger/safety always works as it should when dry firing. Trigger always pulls back and releases, unless the thing is live/hot with ammo. Then, it may or it may not work as intended.
It has a scope mount cover..any other modifications? How well does it eject empties when it does fire? Does it chuck them a good distance or drop'em real close?
Going off if it's pretty much stock....If it drops the hammer fine cycling by hand, but not with live ammo, it sounds like a grungy chamber, or a build up of casing lacquer. On the SKS, if the bolt doesn't fully close and fully seat the round, the disconnector won't allow the trigger to release the hammer and the rifle to go bang, it's to prevent an out of battery discharge, it's a safety feature. The shell casing auto loading and going in the chamber is all thats changed between your two scenarios. You said it was bought used, if the previous owner used lots of nasty dirty commie lacquer coated ammo, it could have caused a build up, especially if he didn't clean it well. Casing lacquer takes more work to get out than the typical cleaning, a good stiff .410 shotgun brush and a stout cleaner maybe needed. Ask a Mosin owner about chamber lacquer build up, I've had a few suffer from it, all easily fixed with a stout chamber cleaning.
Scope mount cover and Murray’s trigger work. That’s all the modifications. Like you said, it’s pretty much a stock SKS.
It does eject without major problems. How well? When it fires, it tosses empty cartridges about six feet…which is a bit of a guess. I was from a seated position (wood bench and table) with a concrete floor. The empties are basically at my bench, not two or three benches away even with them rolling on concrete.
Yes, the only change in scenario that makes a difference is running it by hand vs. auto loading.
Chamber has been brushed/cleaned like I normally do with my firearms. But nothing like you mention to get rid of lacquer build up. So I need to give that a whirl and see if anything changes with it.
The previous owner said he fired it once or twice to make sure it worked. It didn’t sound to me like he spent much time doing anything with it.
What you say kind of makes sense. When I first got the rifle, the bolt really had difficulty closing. Sometimes, I couldn’t get it closed by hand much less while autoloading.
Well I’ve got a .410 brush. I’m guessing something stronger than Hoppes 9?
Depending on which one I shoot...they sometimes average 12, 15 or more feet away when they are chucking good.
Previous owner shot it once or twice.. think1 if I had a dollar for every time a seller said that to me.. chuckles1 That opens another possibility, did he clean the grease out of the chamber before he....shot it once or twice. Storage grease can have the same effect in the chamber, especially if he gave it a quick lazy man clean, then let it sit for years afterward, that grease will slowly harden to a semi tacky mess.
Hoppes is ok... but yes, stronger, acetone works, lacquer thinner, any strong cleaning solvent. Some I have even cleaned the chamber with those green scouring pads and a good cleaner. Others have wrapped steel wool on the brush and cleaned, even tearing it completely down and cleaning with really hot soapy water and then dry with an air compressor.
Oh lord, mine don’t do 12 or 15 feet. Not even the longest toss. So is that more indication of lacquer buildup?
I’m just now looking down the barrel. It ‘looks’ good to my untrained eyes. Nothing unusual. The rifling grooves are easy to see. The entire bore shines bright with a light on it. I’ve seen worse and way worse. However, I’m guessing though that lacquer, even buildup, isn’t easily seen unless you know what to look for. How do you know when it’s clean and good to go then?
Sorry for the dumb questions but thanks for all the answers that are easy to understand.
Acetone, sounds good. Used it before to clean up cosmoline on good old rifles. I also have some Big 45 Frontier Metal Cleaner that’s supposed to be good with doing damage.
The barrel itself is not really the issue, some people think, yup, it's clean, based off the barrel appearance, but, it's in the depths of the chamber where you can't see good unless you have a borescope to peek in there. I usually scrub it for a few minutes, then flush it out, then repeat, and then it's fun time, take it and try it, see how it does.
Also, you can really clean the guts of the big end of the gas tube with the .410 brush and solvent too, this is another area that could also be a contributing cause to weak ejection, I threw this out there because it's just another place to check and look, and another place thats frequently ignored. The small end, an old .22 brush works on. Old grease in it's depths can hamper or slow the gas system down.
After this, you will then know if it really has a problem, hopefully it doesn't, but, we just need to eliminate the previous user/abuser from the picture...makes troubleshooting a little easier when the rifle guts are truly clean.
Roger that, sir. Thanks very much for the help.
It's going to take a few days until I get it accomplished. But it's a goal (along with finishing the rebuild a '81 GS850 motor , etc.) for me. When this thing shoots, it seems to be reasonably accurate from what little I could tell. So gotta get it done. Thanks again, I'll report back here with my results.
Try eliminating the scope mount and go back as close as you can to original...see if it works. Some of those receiver cover mounts will bind on the bolt carrier enough to cause grief....and even if it seems like it isn't...it might just require forcing the bolt carrier a little tad forward until you hear it click into battery. This sounds like a very common problem... if it isn't in battery...it SHOULDN'T be able to fire... This often happens when folks ride the carrier with their hand rather than letting it slam home hard....which, can be dangerous as hell with an SKS should there be a firing pin issue....but since you have that covered.... :)
If by manually charging it, it fires, and then won't cycle fully enough to allow the trigger to reset or bolt return to battery...there is a chance your recoil spring might not have enough oomph anymore....there also is the possibility of an issue with the gas system not popping hard enough against a perfectly good recoil spring. Things to check there would be the op rod under the rear sight...check for any burrs that might be impeding proper function...
There also is the chance something got bent in the trigger group...sometimes you can damage the safety spring if you try to force the trigger group in with the safety off.
Your mention of having to relieve the scope mount to get it to charge seems like the most obvious place to start.... I have had to grind the hell out of some of those covers to allow the bolt carrier to move freely.
Just cleaned it (normal, not the acetone treatment) and it cycled manually without a problem. Ran it 20 times and not a problem. Put the scope cover on ... and it feels tight. Definitely harder to pull the bolt back and charge it. So I loosened the mount to where it'll probably fall off when firing the gun...and it feels smooth and easy again. There's something about that cover that's an issue for this gun, I believe. You've done some grinding on the inside of the cover? I think that's a remedy that I need to look at sooner than later also.
Quote from: BadMonk on June 19, 2018, 05:56:16 PM
Just cleaned it (normal, not the acetone treatment) and it cycled manually without a problem. Ran it 20 times and not a problem. Put the scope cover on ... and it feels tight. Definitely harder to pull the bolt back and charge it. So I loosened the mount to where it'll probably fall off when firing the gun...and it feels smooth and easy again. There's something about that cover that's an issue for this gun, I believe. You've done some grinding on the inside of the cover? I think that's a remedy that I need to look at sooner than later also.
Yeah...I had to dremel the hell out of one type....and a little bit on another. I almost think I know which one you might have. :)
The one I had to really work on was using an Albanian carrier...which might be out of spec for an aftermarket cover. The old Red Star mount without the see through lift gave me the most issues...it really isn't fun grinding on the inside of a curved surface.
When you say loosen the scope mount...do you have it screwed in with a bolt instead of the original lever latch?
I’ve got a UTG Pro SKS Receiver Cover Mount w/22 Slots. Not sure if they’ll allow a link...or if I can do it.
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00JR61HKA?tag=reloaderaddict-20 (https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00JR61HKA?tag=reloaderaddict-20)
It’s a receiver cover and mount in one. Locks onto the receiver with four screws.
I wanted to try one of those...but the price kept me at bay.
I did have one cover with those side tightening bolts... that did warp the receiver enough to cause issues....I would drop those screws altogether, as they mar the receiver...and remove the takedown lever, thread the hole through the mount...that also threads into the receiver for a thread or so...it works.
Yeah, I agree...expensive. Didn't want to go the cheap route (for a change) so I bit on it. We'll see how it works out.
Okay I'm following along through "...remove the takedown lever..." and then I get lost and can't picture it. I believe the receiver cover mount is a problem for this gun though.
Oh wait, I got it. Yeah that's a good idea, Justin. I'll need to give that a try and lay off possibly disfiguring the receiver with those screws. Thanks!
Hmmm...... whacky-cool aftermarket item causing the rifle to not function. I would send it back and demand reimbursement. Then shoot it as Siminov intended.
Lots of information to digest and things to do. I honestly hope it is something as easy as that. Although iron sights and tri-focal eye glasses at 62 don't make for marksman like shooting. geezer1
I think one of those holographic sights mounted at the rear sight leaf would be fun. Likely less problematic as well.
Funny that you mentioned that. I was just looking through my box of stuff. Came across a Bushnell Trophy red dot and I'm thinking about mounting that up there. Removed the scope and mount...geez, the rifle is so much lighter in weight. Nice...
Hey, at least the purist in me didn't just start out with, rip that useless scope thingy off and throw that pos as hard as you can. rofl
I tried to be nice and over look it.. my tourettes therapy is starting to pay off rofl2
I suffer from Tourette Syndrome too. What therapy is making a difference for you? I've tried forms of 'talk' therapy and, of course, medication but not great results.
Thought I might have gotten you, Greasemonkey, but I didn't fool you. Anyhow...
I took the abhorrent abomination (scope and mount) off the SKS. Put the original receiver cover on and headed to the range. Firearm had the exact same problem(s) - couldn't pull the trigger, failed to fire when trigger did pull, pull the magazine and it dry fires perfectly. So the abomination doesn't seem to be the problem.
I fed three rounds directly into the chamber, no mag. It fired two of the three rounds but once it failed to fire. That sure sounds like the lacquer build-up that you explained, Gm.
Empty cartridges fly 8 feet, fairly consistently. But looks like an acetone bath is next on the agenda!
Hit the gas tube and clean it too, I mean while your there, scrubbing stuffs.. :)
Naw...I aint got it, but I might, wife and a few others think I might, maybe I'm just too blunt and don't sugarcoat stuff, and I'm kinda known for my very "colorful" vocabulary rofl
funny...wives. mine says i have asperger's syndrome because i have difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication. in other words, she thinks i'm blunt and not tactful. chuckles1
yeah, i'll check the gas tube while i'm there. i think i cleaned it - along with everything else - when i got the rifle...but my memory may be clouded due to my 'condition'
Ok, are we talking the original magazine or an aftermarket? I have had similar issues with Tapco mags that are bound up a little and preventing full feeding (or any at all in some cases).
If it dry fires without a mag, it seems like it still might not be allowing it to fully go into battery...to allow the trigger group to fire. If it is a factory magazine...perhaps the feed lips are bent inward a little?
Tapco mag but the mag doesn't seem to be a problem, esp after today.
This afternoon after getting no better results from removing the scope, I hand fed rounds directly into the chamber with no mag. Same problem with and without the scope, with and without a mag.
It seems to be what Greasemonkey mentioned from the start. The round isn't fully seated in battery so the rifle can't/won't/shouldn't fire. Seems like the scope and the mag are probably eliminated as the cause. So next I try to eliminate lacquer build up in the chamber. I hope cleaning it out real good does the trick.
For clarification..... you need to put that .410 brush on a rod, chuck it up in a drill, and get after that chamber from the rear of the receiver.... disassembled of course.
Thanks, I probably wouldn't have gone that route but now I know. Makes sense to attack it like that. I hope to find time tomorrow...maybe day after tomorrow. Will report back to this thread when I get it cleaned and out to the range.
Does the bolt serial number match the receiver?
Have you inserted the bolt and bolt only into battery position in the receiver and verified the bottom rear angle of the bolt drops down into battery? The bottom rear of the bolt should drop down just forward of the locking lug that runs left/right through the receiver.
No chambered round while checking this. Unless you have a 'go gauge' and you can verify with the gauge also.
Good questions.
Unlike the receiver, there's no serial number on the bolt.
Yes, the rear end of the bolt drops down when pushed into position in front of the locking lug. There's a slight tension when there to push the rear end of the bolt up and back.
if you sand down the stuff Tapco prints on the sides of the mag, hidden when installed...if you do have any binding issues, that clears it right up. They work best in plastic stocks...and can pinch enough to cause issues sometimes in wood...I would blame humidity for that, but I am pretty sure it is just the cosmoline. :)
It sounds as if the chamber probably is the issue, I have only had 1k rounds of the lacquer coated stuff...still haven't finished it, and spread it over several guns. I did have some similar cycling issues on one that may have tasted more of it before she was mine. A nice reaming as LC suggested should clear that up.
Hopefully that will get you squared away and you can put that (pretty neat) abomination back on. rofl2
I hope to pick one of those up someday for a decent price and form a real opinion. If you choose to try the red dot, ScoutScopes makes a very solid mount that replaces the rear sight....and would get it farther forward. Avoid the Tapco handguard mount...and ESPECIALLY any NC Star handguard mount if you want to go for the scout optic option. There is a laundry list of reasons against both. The ScoutScopes mount is lightweight and tidy. With a red dot, there is no need for shell deflection measures too.
Hope to hear good news from your next range trip.
Quote from: BadMonk on June 21, 2018, 12:14:13 AM
Good questions.
Unlike the receiver, there's no serial number on the bolt.
Yes, the rear end of the bolt drops down when pushed into position in front of the locking lug. There's a slight tension when there to push the rear end of the bolt up and back.
There is only a few causes for what is happening here.....
#1 The chamber is gummed up causing the round to not fully seat and the bolt to not go into full battery...... ultimately not allowing the disconnector to be engaged.
#2 The bolt is not original to the rifle and the headspaceing is insufficient which is not allowing full battery.
#3 The disconnector is for some reason not long enough to be engaged by the bolt when in full battery, or the trigger group it belongs to is not seated in the riffle fully/correctly.
From what you said that I quoted above..... Im suspect the bolt is a replacement (not serialized) and you have a replacement bolt that has not been headspaced. With the bolt (no round chambered) fully seated into battery, you should still have some front/back 'free-play' or movement of the bolt. Not alot, but it should be there, perhaps .020" or so. X39 is not a rimmed cartridge, so the shoulder of the round is where it seats. This small free-play movement in the bolt will be taken up when a round is chambered.
If you say the bolt has no numbers, and it requires anything but gravity for the bolt to go in/out of battery...... Cannon says the bolt has insufficient headspacing.
Thanks very much for the detailed response and reasoning. You may be onto something wrt the bolt.
Now, I didn’t clarify very well what I stated about the bolt. I’ll give it another go but I’m relatively new to the intricacies and moving parts of firearms…so you’re dealing with that.
The bolt has no serial number on it. (I think this was supposed to be a matching numbers gun. Must look into that.) The disconnector sits beneath the bolt when it’s in battery position, right? The disconnector is putting a small bit of tension on the bolt to move it up and back, basically moving it out of battery. Otherwise the un-serialized bolt drops into place.
However, there is no free front-to-back movement available once in position. There’s none whatsoever…and so it’s possible that it’s not even dropping down or forward as far as it should. Am I understanding this?
It seems (again, a novice speaking) like the disconnector is ‘probably’ fine without knowing more. But the spacing, not so much.
I own a few other SKS rifles and looked at what those bolts do. There are varying degrees of movement in them, unlike this troubled rifle. There’s no space to give in the rifle so there’s none to be taken up when the round is chambered…and that means it won’t go bang.
So besides looking up the seller’s ad/listing and maybe the seller…can see if a different bolt will work in the gun or is that asking for even more problems? I mean if the ‘temporary replacement’ bolt has a small amount of play, can I take it to the range and see if it will fire as intended?
QuoteThe disconnector sits beneath the bolt when it’s in battery position, right? The disconnector is putting a small bit of tension on the bolt to move it up and back, basically moving it out of battery.
The disconnector in no way/shape/form is there to 'lift' the bolt out of battery. The action is specifically designed for the bolt to ONLY come out of battery if the bolt carrier is driven to the rear via the gas system. There is a reason for those hooks on the bottom of the carrier. You need to be inspecting these things with the barreled action COMPLETELY disassembled, which means.... no trigger group installed and subsequently no disconnector as a variable.
QuoteHowever, there is no free front-to-back movement available once in position. There’s none whatsoever…and so it’s possible that it’s not even dropping down or forward as far as it should. Am I understanding this?
It seems (again, a novice speaking) like the disconnector is ‘probably’ fine without knowing more. But the spacing, not so much.
Basically.
QuoteI own a few other SKS rifles and looked at what those bolts do. There are varying degrees of movement in them, unlike this troubled rifle. There’s no space to give in the rifle so there’s none to be taken up when the round is chambered…and that means it won’t go bang.
So besides looking up the seller’s ad/listing and maybe the seller…can see if a different bolt will work in the gun or is that asking for even more problems? I mean if the ‘temporary replacement’ bolt has a small amount of play, can I take it to the range and see if it will fire as intended?
The problem here is.... I would never recommend swapping bolts and risking bad things to happen to your face. Bolts are headspaced to a specific gun. If you grab a bolt from another carbine that creates excessive headspace in the 'problem' carbine... Get a good life insurance policy for your family. :o
The rifle is easily fixable, you simply need to verify/correct the headspace issue. You need to......
#1 Buy a set of 'go'/'no-go' headspace gauges, or atleast the 'go' gauge.
#2 Remove the projectile and powder from a round without damaging the casing in any way, and we can use that as a 'go' gauge.
Once we have a gauge to work with and see exactly where things are...... we can adjust the bolt accordingly.
Head space :o pretty rare occurrence from what I remember. But an unnumbered bolt can make one wonder...
I'm waiting for the seller to get back to me because this was supposed to be a matching numbers firearm. But I ended up with an odd bolt. I should have checked it closer upon actual purchase (usually do) but it was in a busy Wal-Mart parking lot, uncooperative weather, at dinner time, lots of cars...everything rushed. When I heard Murray's FP, my brain just went "okay" I guess.
I would still clean the chamber and tube thumb1
And maybe ask the seller how he fired it without any issues like you said in your orignial post..... Obviously it wasn't firing correctly.
Now that I know about lacquer, those that may have been fired with lacquered ammo will get the treatment.
Yeah, I'd like to know how he fired it without any problems too. These hiccups aren't a once in fifty thing; it's consistently a problem. So we'll see... And I'll get the right bolt if he has it or even hints that he may have it. I'll be in touch here.
Remember..... If this bolt is too 'long', we can make it work. thumb1
Roger that...thanks!
For reference..
The difference between a 'go' and 'no go' gauge is about .005" to .007" depending on if its CIP or SAAMI specs. This is the thickness of ONE layer of blue painters masking tape. So you can add ONE layer of tape to the rear of a 'go' gauge and turn it into a 'no go' gauge. thumb1
First, 'thanks' to everyone who used their own time to help me learn about my SKS and figure out the problem. I learned a lot here and that pushed me to research more on my own.
This afternoon, I got the matching numbered bolt this afternoon. For a few dollars and my troubles, I kept the other bolt that had gone thru Murray's. It was a good deal. The real shiny one on top is the Murray bolt
(https://preview.ibb.co/c4hZpo/20180622_180127.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kexOh8)
I then went straight to the range, slipped in the matching bolt, pulled the trigger and bang. Nice but I've been here before. Pulled the trigger and bang...bang again. I felt cautiously good but, after three more shots, I'm zeroing on my target. I wasn't at the range very long but shot 40 rounds and no problems. It's zeroed close enough for government work, for now.
Took the rifle home, cleaned it, gave it the lacquer build-up treatment and changed out firing pins. The Murray pin feels good. It lives!
So the previous owner still had the original bolt? Looks like the one that had insufficient headspace had the drop-free bolt mod.
Is the 'original' bolt you just got stamped with any of the serials digit sequence?
Yes, he had the original bolt and put the Murray’s bolt in the gun, probably because we had discussed it before the transaction.
The problematic bolt looked like it was polished up quite a bit. In comparison, that bolt is narrower in spots than the original good bolt.
The original bolt (that works) has stamped numbers that match the serial numbers on other parts of the firearm. I probably should have taken a better pic to show the numbers but it’s a Norinco with serial number 1611706. Not sure if I answered your question, hopefully I did
Problem solve.
The other bolt is narrow on the bottom because its been modified for the drop-free bolt mod.
Ah, drop-free bolt mod...got it. Just looked it up and, yes, that's what the problem bolt looks like, from what I can tell. Interesting, sort of. I'm glad the original bolt works just fine. Thanks for the help!
Glad she's working well for you now! dance2
Nice of that previous owner to throw in the other bolt too. Not that it does you much good at the moment, but if you got some headspace gauges you could make it an exact fit and have a reliable spare "just in case". thumb1 Bolt bodies sell for 30ish bucks on ebay too, so that's always another option to get something out of the part that caused you so much grief. thumb1
Well yeah, I got a Murray's firing pin and a spare bolt for my trouble and a few bucks. The main thing was that the original bolt works and the firearm can be used. The way things were going, I wondered if it was ever going to work. From the forty or so shots, it seems accurate enough too...nothing to complain about. I didn't really heat up the barrel to see what happens then but I really don't fire like that any how so...I'm good with it.
Connon likes happy endings. thumb1
I would love to see a headspace sticky... that isn't what she said... or was it? dance2
Troubleshooting this gun was educational. Something that might be great to have around is an instructional for checking, and fixing headspace issues. I have one gun I never headspaced that has a brand new bolt. I am sure a cache of those Tapco bolts will turn up...it couldn't hurt to have folks in the know share what they have done to ensure a safe firearm with either surplus or aftermarket bolts.
Now that the imports (again) have dwindled...there may be more folks building SKSs out of parts. I hadn't really considered it much since I got that DB designed without the locking lug. After this thread it makes me consider a couple others that while functioning....may not be quite safe.
Anyone got a brand new bolt, some files and a decent camera? Someone with those prerequisites could potentially save lives.... That blown up SKS LC posted awhile back is a great example of why. :)
I have a bolt body that had too much material removed, and as a result would create excessive headspace in likely every SKS.
Maybe I can show excessive, build up a weld and show insufficient, then adjust the bolt to show correct.
That should show all three conditions.
Speaking as someone who knows nothing about headspace - except for what I learned on this thread - I'd be interested in understanding much more about it especially if welding is involved.
It's been a while since posting so I'm doing a short follow-up. The gun's been to the range a few times since my last post and it's been running without a hiccup, except once. It was the second range trip where it presented the same problems ... can't pull the trigger, may or may not fire if the trigger does release, even got the unexpected slam fire. It took a minute or two to realize that I put the troublesome bolt in when screwing around with parts. Dumb move. Anyhow, the gun runs like great and is more accurate than I can be. I put a cheapo NC Star gas tube/rail on it with the Bushnell RDS and it works well for me. Definitely one of my favorite rifles. Thanks again for the assist!
Excellent!
Perhaps mark that other bolt with red sharpie or something so you don't install it...
good idea wrt the sharpie. it's bagged and away from my hands but good for later on.
If it still has issues I'd strongly recommend you have a competent gunsmith go/no-go gauge it.
I've also used denatured alcohol on suspected lacquer build up - zaps it really well.