So I managed to wrangle this one away from another local collector. I've been trying to piece together what it is, and I believe it may be the illusive "18 inch" commercial Canadian model mentioned in the Canadian chapter of the SKS Guide for commercial Chinese guns.
This SKS was saved from the back room of a LGS last December. It was missing the original gas tube, bayonet and butt plate. The rescuer took it home, ordered a new Chinese gas tube assembly, added a bayonet and (gasp) re-stained the stock as it had flaked. Other than that, all parts with the gun appear to have been the way it was sold. The bayonet however in original form was too long, and had to be shortened. That is when our rescuer realized the barrel itself was shorter than an original sks should be. In fact, it measures out at exactly 18.75 inches. 18.5 or less in Canada is restricted (SBR eh!) and thus why it isn't shorter.
All typical locations for serial numbers have been scrubbed, and a 04 prefix serial number added by the Chinese. There are no other markings, and no USA style import markings.
SKS 7.62X39 04008**
Made in China
Given the 04 serial number, I am fairly certain this gun came in after the 02 "SKS-D" marked commercial guns that have no bayonets and a shortened bayonet lug. Lever Arms and SIR were heavily into importing those guns.
In doing some research on the Canadian Gun Nutz forum, I came across one post and only one post that was speaking about Yugos vs Chinese SKS. One of the repliers stated:
"Lever's, and SIR's SKS's are norinco and yes, they are slapped together from parts bins. They have shorter barrels and the stock has a rubber 'recoil' pad on it. (IIRC) They do shoot just fine and work quite well and also have a chrome bore."
That would possibly explain the missing butt plate on this gun if someone ditched the rubber recoil pad. That is all I know on this one. Never seen any other mention or pictures of something similar. The serial number shows less than 900 made in 2004 and I doubt any more may have come it. Honestly everything I have is theory based on the above single post and the hints provided by the serial number and scrubbed parts on the gun itself. Wish I had something more conclusive.
Mr. Lever passed away about a year ago, and his descendants don't have any recollection. John at Marstar also had no independent recollection. (Our rescuer called both). SIR got bought out by Cabelas, so not even worth trying there for information. The LGS had no idea about the gun at all, other than it had been in the back room for some time and they decided to clear it out of the back.
For lack of any other term for it, I present to you, the Canadian Para SKS (my term, not official haha)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8042%201024x683_zpszmvij5m4.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8039%201024x683_zpsdswd4qgu.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8026%20edit%201024x683_zps3n7oh4fd.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8038%201024x683_zpswaem2zrf.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8037%201024x683_zpszhj5u2qz.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8035%201024x683_zpspcwtjs3w.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8032%201024x683_zps3i1sq0hj.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8031%201024x683_zpsd6qwvlfl.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8029%201024x683_zpszun7qvbd.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8030%201024x683_zpssearl6ap.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8028%201024x683_zps4tuxiogz.jpg)
Now that is a neat find. *Very* kool fenceline, thanks for sharing!
What a hodgepodge of parts I see. Milled TG, stock from an inverted takedown lever gun, late bolt carrier, really odd duck short barrel lug (looks like they took quite a bit more off than is typical), early gas tube, early FSB, cast gas block, cast RSB. Very neat. Reminds me of a '57 Chevy in Havana...the car is a '57 Chevy, but in reality it isn't anymore because darn near every internal part has been replaced.
The gas tube was a replacement. The original went missing at some point so as a feature it can't be relied on as original. But that in mind nothing on this gun is consistent to a period. Being commercial and all. Total mix master in that regard.
It is different that is for sure. So different I haven't seen pictures of anything like it up here. While it has been refinished and "restored" I'm quite happy with how it looks. No one has really done any research into the commercial versions up here. Most sks collectors and even general shooters turn their noses up at the commercial "inferior" models.
Honestly this forum has done more to research the Canadian SKS-D models than anyone on CGN has.
Odd duck for sure this one.
You can still see the original serial number on the side of the receiver.......neat rifle!
Quote from: padams8888 on March 13, 2017, 02:20:57 AM
You can still see the original serial number on the side of the receiver.......neat rifle!
You've got better eyes than I do. I can't see it.
I see 4 of the old numbers.... Looks like 2309.
Quote from: fenceline on March 13, 2017, 06:33:08 AM
Quote from: padams8888 on March 13, 2017, 02:20:57 AM
You can still see the original serial number on the side of the receiver.......neat rifle!
You've got better eyes than I do. I can't see it.
I didn't see it until Pat pointed it out either :o
LC is right, certainly looks like a 2309:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/commercial/04008xx_receiver2.jpg)
Thanks! Perhaps the first 4 given location. 23 million perhaps.
Actually, I think it's a 28, not a 23. That's the big bubbly font seen on 27-29mil guns.
Quote from: Power Surge on March 13, 2017, 05:59:50 PM
Actually, I think it's a 28, not a 23. That's the big bubbly font seen on 27-29mil guns.
Will take a close look and see if my eyes will pick anything up on the actual receiver.
So I took a really bright flashlight and shone it on the side of the receiver where the ghosted number is. I was able to read it and the number appears to be the ghost image of a laser engraving. It starts under the i in China.
The ghosted serial number is very legible and uniform. Does not look hand stamped and I'm sure it is laser engraved as the numbers are very evenly spaced and level across the receiver.
With the light is was clearly readable. The light is so bright though that taking a picture is impossible.
9××2309. xx replaces two digits.
9mil number. Can't see a triangle or arsenal marking ghosted.
Very interesting. That would make sense, since it has 9mil era attributes. Just doesn't look like 9 mil font though.
Interesting... thumb1
Just outta curiosity, since it is visibly a truly scrubbed receiver, is there any receiver thickness differences vs. one thats not scrubbed? Do they shave just the left side to remove the old markings, or do they do both sides so it's equal?
Is or are the stocks usually that color, is it the normal Chinese stock wood thats just either a Chinese rework or importer rework, or has it been stripped/stained after purchase trying to make it look "nice"?
Quote from: Power Surge on March 13, 2017, 11:56:39 PM
Very interesting. That would make sense, since it has 9mil era attributes. Just doesn't look like 9 mil font though.
Ya it isn't a punched serial number for sure. I wish I could get a photo. It is straight, perfectly spaced, and computer-ish font. Wasn't hand done for sure, and appears cleanly burnt into the finish. Almost just a discoloration now.
Unique for sure. PAX
9××2309. xx replaces two digits.
Ah Ha!!
Quote from: Greasemonkey on March 14, 2017, 12:02:33 AM
Interesting... thumb1
Just outta curiosity, since it is visibly a truly scrubbed receiver, is there any receiver thickness differences vs. one thats not scrubbed? Do they shave just the left side to remove the old markings, or do they do both sides so it's equal?
Is or are the stocks usually that color, is it the normal Chinese stock wood thats just either a Chinese rework or importer rework, or has it been stripped/stained after purchase trying to make it look "nice"?
It has what could be tooling marks on the left side. The "rescuer" I got it from restained it as he said the original finish was flaking. Said he picked the color because he saw Chinese sks that color online. It is actually pretty close to the color on the stamped receiver stocks I have.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on March 14, 2017, 12:44:29 AM
9××2309. xx replaces two digits.
Ah Ha!!
I wasn't going to rub it in, but very much not an 8 haha.
I was just thinking an 8, because that looks like the 27-29 mil font.
Quote from: Power Surge on March 13, 2017, 11:56:39 PM
Very interesting. That would make sense, since it has 9mil era attributes. Just doesn't look like 9 mil font though.
I think look at it as a 9X prefixed gun, not a 9 mil /26\. I'd bet it's a 94 or 95 that didn't make it into the states before the ban was implemented.
Something like:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/commercial/9451738_receiver.jpg)
But with different placement maybe? Just a guess...
Quote from: running-man on March 14, 2017, 08:43:39 AM
Quote from: Power Surge on March 13, 2017, 11:56:39 PM
Very interesting. That would make sense, since it has 9mil era attributes. Just doesn't look like 9 mil font though.
I think look at it as a 9X prefixed gun, not a 9 mil /26\. I'd bet it's a 94 or 95 that didn't make it into the states before the ban was implemented.
Something like:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/commercial/9451738_receiver.jpg)
But with different placement maybe? Just a guess...
That is the exact font and format right there. Just not in the same place as that picture.
I think this gun was also rebarreled. The barrel lug has a vertical pin inserted from the top down on the left side and as mentioned earlier is shorter in appearance.
Given the ghosted serial number, barrel and US import ban time lines this may very well have been a commercial gun that was built twice. Once for the US market then a second time for the Canadian market.
Ok, the serial is neat and all....but can we get back to that barrel lug?
What is going on there? Aside from being strange looking, are those two vertical pins on either side of it? Could that be some sort of a pinned barrel to threaded receiver adapter?
The trigger group is milled, odd for the time frame as is the lightening cut FSB. The stock looks to be refinished with something over the existing ruby red finish typical of late /26\ stocks...with the inverted takedown. The parts are from all over the place, I wouldn't be surprised if some of this is scrubbed Russian stuff if these indeed were assembled in Canada. If they are 100% Chinese parts, this gun spans the majority of Chinese production.
I wonder if these were possibly a concept developed along the way towards a 'short by design' concept that evolved into the short gas system for the para length guns...if it is a 94ish import it fits the time frame.
That barrel lug really deserves some more attention...and pics please. :)
Quote from: fenceline on March 14, 2017, 01:12:44 PM
That is the exact font and format right there. Just not in the same place as that picture.
I think this gun was also rebarreled. The barrel lug has a vertical pin inserted from the top down on the left side and as mentioned earlier is shorter in appearance.
Given the ghosted serial number, barrel and US import ban time lines this may very well have been a commercial gun that was built twice. Once for the US market then a second time for the Canadian market.
Very neat! thumb1 Those are one of the only stock Chinese type 56s I could remember that were engraved/etched instead of stamped.
The rebarrel is pretty interesting too. The barrel lug looks like it was turned down on the outside somewhat and I thought I could see an out of place tick mark, but I just chalked that up to an artifact of the photo. It could be that they milled the threads off the barrel and press fit it into this receiver with a pin to stabilize it. They could have also threaded it in as normal but it had to be clocked much differently to headspace properly. That pin is definitely there for a reason though! dance2
I remember Murray seeing one of these many moons ago when he was doing a neck & throat for a customer, but I don't remember what the verdict was when he finally got the barrel off. Let me see if I can find that thread...
Quote from: fenceline on March 14, 2017, 01:12:44 PM
I think this gun was also rebarreled. The barrel lug has a vertical pin inserted from the top down on the left side and as mentioned earlier is shorter in appearance.
Given the ghosted serial number, barrel and US import ban time lines this may very well have been a commercial gun that was built twice. Once for the US market then a second time for the Canadian market.
Yes and no...
I might be wrong...but most all of the pinned barrels here in the states are pinned on the bottom, much like an Ak. The pin on the left side of the barrel going top to bottom is odd. There might be some pinned like that one here.....but the overwhelming majority are pinned on the bottom of the barrel.
Now...is it at all possible that it was built for Canada, there was some law there changed before it's import..requiring the Chinese or the importer there to rework it.
No changes in the law. But if it was a 16.5 barrel it would have been an sbr here (restricted). The 18.75 barrel gets over the 18.5 inch minimum for Non Restricted.
Will take some pics tonight of the lug and pin.
Could they be unpara'd paras? Rebarreled since they wouldn't fit Canadian law, but already cut short for the US market and just, sitting there?
The barrels could have been replaced with as short as they could go, since they already had to take it apart...why not take advantage of the obvious desire for a shorter SKS and just rebuild them a little differently? It would be interesting to see one like this with it's original bayonet, to see if they perhaps were a little too short for the groove in the stock...or if they were ground to fit. Too short might indicate a rebuilt US rebuild...it would still reach the stock retainer, and go into the groove a little, but leave a gap in the stock groove.
Is there a similar type of barrel for a different gun that could have been modified for the SKS? Would a potential AKM market have been possible if the barrels were longer? It seems as if pinning a hi cap mag is not really an issue....is the AK lack up there simply because of barrel length? If there were folks in China trying to build a Canadian friendly AKM, Something akin to that AK/SKS Polytech monstrosity that recently appeared on GB.....barrels like this could have been available already....
I would like to see several of these and see if they are a mix and match of various guns, like many paratroopers were in the first place, early blade here, late pinned there...etc. If they were a pinned receiver, perhaps the replacement barrels would just go right in, no sweat...but the threaded barrel receivers needed that funky pinnned/threaded thing we see here.
I live close enough to Canada, it kills me that I cannot go up for a mini vacation just to hit the gun shops (and tire shops) to see what I can see. I nearly invaded once...but opted to get back on the cruise ship...Stupid hindsight. :P
There is or was a 18.5 or 18 something inch American import according to the Surge... http://chinesesks.weebly.com/18-inch-barrel.html
Little if any info I can find on it.. must really be an oddity here. Maybe he has more on it.. thumb1
XXX and I talked at length on that 18" gun in the commercial guide. I wasn't going to include it in the survey, but Joe convinced me to do so. He did say that he had never handled one in person and that they are rare as hen's teeth. dntknw1
Justin, I believe AK's are disallowed up north based on them being AKs by design and designation, not based on any individual feature such as barrel length. This is why they can get Type 81s and VZ58s (not AKs), but not an AK from any nationality or even new production Veprs or Saigas.
One of the cast receiver SKS variations, was a lugged barrel with threads machined off, pressed into the receiver, and retained with two vertical pins. Looks like the same setup here.
Quote from: running-man on March 14, 2017, 06:08:17 PM
Justin, I believe AK's are disallowed up north based on them being AKs by design and designation, not based on any individual feature such as barrel length. This is why they can get Type 81s and VZ58s (not AKs), but not an AK from any nationality or even new production Veprs or Saigas.
Thats how I understand it.. an Ak is an Ak and forbidden... the funny thing with the Vz 58/Vz2008 that is here in the states, according to their law is a SBR, the Vz2008 by CAI has a Green River 16.5 incher measured with the Ak style brake removed, the CzechPoint Vz, while it is a factory Cz made barrel, it actually measures 15.4 inches, it has an adapter/muzzle extension welded on the muzzle just to skirt by with a 16.5 inch for importation into the states.. Their Vz 58/2008 equal from what I've seen would be a CZ 858 or the CZH 2003 Sport in both a longer barrel or the shorter version for those who can or want too choose the SBR route, built as a slightly different variation that as far as I know, even the longer 18+ inch barrel was not even available here.
Quote. an Ak is an Ak and forbidden...
there's a magical
Kalashnikov derivative designation that covers all sorts of things the rcmp doesn't want us to have. There is some debate as to whether the people deciding this just spin a wheel or something.
All i know is i cant have an SVD to go with my SVT >:(
AKs are prohibited. Only exceptions are the valet m78 and valet hunter. The rest are prohibited like they do in New York and such.
Short barrels are restricted. I can own them but can only shoot them at govt approved ranges and they have to be registered. Any semi auto with a barrel less than 18.5 inches is restricted.
Gas system on this gun is normal length. Not shortened. I would guess if a swap was done the whole barrel assembly was done.
The rumour I'm getting from the rescuer is that it was diverted from California. Not sure where he got that info. Maybe here haha.
Vz58 and cz858 up here have longer barrels to get around our version of the sbr rule. 18.5+
They look like the vz58pi versions.
Can anyone show me where I can find more info on the last of the commercial imports sharing similar laser etched serial numbers?
Additional photos... bayonet inlet and left, right and bottom of barrel lug.
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8048%201024x683_zpsfsb0oev8.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8043%201024x683_zpsq5senw0v.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8045%201024x683_zpsp36kflcl.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8049%201024x683_zpsu978dbmv.jpg)
Quote from: fenceline on March 14, 2017, 11:32:03 PM
Can anyone show me where I can find more info on the last of the commercial imports sharing similar laser etched serial numbers?
I don't know that anything like that exists man. We certainly haven't been keeping track of them here. I typically toss the 88-94 guns right out the window when it comes to cataloguing them. There are a ton of them, every single one of them is different, and I don't find them all that useful for learning what the Chinese actually did when the gun was originally built. PS would know if any of the upgraded commercial variants had etching/engraving like that. The only one I can think of is maybe the Polytech Hunter, though it had a far different font, in fact the font is a bit reminiscent of the new "SKS 7.63x39 Made in China & S/N" text that your gun sports.
Neat photos. That barrel pin is bizarro, I can't quite figure out what it's meant to pin, the male threads are supposed to be on the barrel unless this one was reamed out and some kind of a short threaded adapter collar was threaded into the barrel and used to press the barrel to the receiver. Bizarro world there...
I just meant the pic of the gun with a similar serial number above. It would seem like that laser etching would be easy to associate to an importer or shop dealing with specific import batches for the commercial guns.
Might actually help link thi's one somewhere stateside.
That looks just like a pinned barrel jammed into a trimmed down and reamed short lug....and at least you know the lug is original to the receiver...reaming it out and drilling and pinning the barrel into the lug makes sense.
What else would you do with a pile of pinned barrels and a pile of threaded receivers?
Make them into guns, somehow.
Quote from: Justin Hell on March 15, 2017, 02:57:04 PM
That looks just like a pinned barrel jammed into a trimmed down and reamed short lug....and at least you know the lug is original to the receiver...reaming it out and drilling and pinning the barrel into the lug makes sense.
What else would you do with a pile of pinned barrels and a pile of threaded receivers?
Make them into guns, somehow.
Ahh, now the light bulb goes on. I didn't notice the different color bluing in the metal from the lug to the barrel. That would be why they needed the pin.
Thanks Justin! thumb1
Intriguing.
But the lug is part of the barrel. So that means they had to cut the lug/threaded portion off an existing barrel, scrap the barrel, and then machine the lug to accept a pinned barrel.
Seems like an awful lot of work. They must have had a bunch of short lug barreled receivers laying around from decades ago with bad barrels to go through that much trouble turning them into a new gun.
Quote from: Power Surge on March 15, 2017, 08:16:52 PM
But the lug is part of the barrel. So that means they had to cut the lug/threaded portion off an existing barrel, scrap the barrel, and then machine the lug to accept a pinned barrel.
Seems like an awful lot of work. They must have had a bunch of short lug barreled receivers laying around from decades ago with bad barrels to go through that much trouble turning them into a new gun.
Or had some NOS press fit barrels and then did the machine work....but agreed...what a lot of effort.
Well, I've now picked up a second one of these at the local gun show, thus confirming this isn't some bubba invention. This second one is complete as far as I can tell but is also missing it's bayonet (if it ever had one). Will post side by side photos later tonight.
Ok, here we go...
The original "CP" posted has a serial number of 04008** (will be called 800)
The 2nd more recent acquisition has a serial of 04003** (will be called 300)
Both guns have the same 18.75 inch barrel.
Both guns have the same basic cutout for the bayonet in the stock.
Both guns have similar repairs to the stock comprising an oval inlay.
800 is restained, has a replacement gas tube and the addition of a bayonet and shortened, replacement cleaning rod.
300 has a cleaning rod that appears to have been shortened during commercialization, a hard rubber butt pad and the original finish. No bayonet was with the gun. The seller apologized repeatedly, and cited this as being a reason for a lower price. :P
Both guns have all serial numbers scrubbed on all parts in the same fashion. Both guns have a digital style font serial number that has been scrubbed and overwritten with the current more visible serial number.
Trigger groups are different. 300 is either cast, or has rust pitting that has been cleaned and refinished.
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8064%201024x683_zpsv7yiubz2.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8074%201024x683_zps3qvmp45p.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8076%201024x683_zps4ncdk3ke.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8084%201024x683_zpspbazkehz.jpg)
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy118/Prairie-Law-Dog/Canadian%20Para%20SKS/IMG_8083%201024x683_zpsamskhtqk.jpg)
2004 serialization at rebirth. Neat!!
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on April 14, 2017, 08:18:11 PM
2004 serialization at rebirth. Neat!!
Yup on both of them.
There has to be more info out there on these. The old serial number font is curious.
Very nice FL! thumb1
Can you make out the scrubbed numerals on the 300 series gun? I'm having a harder time seeing them than on the original gun you posted. I do see the faint numbers on the trigger group though. That style TG is cast I believe. Great score.
Quote from: running-man on April 15, 2017, 04:40:51 PM
Very nice FL! thumb1
Can you make out the scrubbed numerals on the 300 series gun? I'm having a harder time seeing them than on the original gun you posted. I do see the faint numbers on the trigger group though. That style TG is cast I believe. Great score.
I'm trying. It is tougher to be seen as the receiver is scrubbed a millionth of an inch more haha. Still there. Need to play with the lighting angle to see if I can decipher it.
Will take another look at the trigger too. Haven't seen a cast trigger group before.
Kool. thumb1
Here's a TG that Pat Adams posted a while back of a [0221] carbine. This one has lots of telltale cast signs throughout. They did finish machine quite a few critical areas though:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/R0221/70_3005879_trigger_group1.jpg)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/R0221/70_3005879_trigger_group2.jpg)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/R0221/70_3005879_trigger_group4.jpg)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/R0221/70_3005879_trigger_group5.jpg)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/R0221/70_3005879_trigger_group6.jpg)
Looking at that one, I don't think mine is. At least it isn't as rough as that one. I'm thinking kine had a little pitting and a fresh finish put on it.