When did Russians start using the blade bayonet on SKS? in 1949 or 1950?
1950 I would presume, but I dont know if it would be something specific to Jan1.
Based on the way it seems the Russians did things, using up parts as they made transitions...I am starting to think the blade made it's appearance in late 49. You don't see any '50s with spikes, yet you do see them sporting some 49 parts on early ones as they used up remaining stock and made the various transitions.
Additionally, it seems like an awful lot of trouble to change out stock retainers during refurb and put the old gas block back on...plus, the original stock retainers being pinned on the bottom would then require drilling out a ridge on the barrel for a top pin. All of this while retaining the original straight eared collar on the front sight...which also had to come off for a stock retainer swap....It just seems very unlikely to me to retain two obsolete parts only to replace one. I think 49s with blade ferrules likely came originally equipped with a blade.
I am also beginning to think that the spikes were reworked leftover M44 bayonets, the time frame is right and the similarities abound, just a little off here and there and they would work perfectly...it is possible when the supply dwindled, they began the update process.
Alternatively, changing the parameters for milling on four steps in the process would be the only difference...and a little more shavings on the floor...they may have been made originally like that, on the same equipment. It is only the difference of 1mm at the 'hilt' and 1mm in the thickness of the shank. The overall length is about 5mm shorter, accomplished by shaving off that amount from the end of the shank, moving the bolt hole closer to the end than on an M44 in doing so.
This is all speculation, but the research I have been doing on the subject seems to paint this picture to me. :)
1: An armorer can take off a FSB and GB in a matter of seconds with correct tools.
2: The 'obsolete' straight ear and collar wasn't obsolete if the parts were already in abundance and could simply be reused.
3: Im fairly certain that the m44 bayo has a dif hole to chank end length, so this would make them a dif animal no matter what you did to it.
4: Every 49 I have ever seen was a refurb, so the likelihood of being updated to a uniform and more abundant blade at the time of refurb would make sense to me.
5: The ferrule being updated at the time of adding a blade makes sense also as that is its intended purpose.....Change one, change both. The straight ear components can stay because both hand/glove components are still being retained.
just my .02
I think the difference in an M44 and this spike bayonet is the bayonet shank the collar rides on. Somewhere I remember reading you could turn the shank down where the lock collar is a little and slightly lengthen the screw slot. Reblue the thing and then you basically have a '49 SKS bayonet. Overall length is the same, so no mention of cutting or other alterations.
I would imagine the attaching screw is the same, Russia would more than likely adapted over the Mosin bayonet to fit it, no since in reinventing the wheel when there was a proven design in existence to fill the gap. I can dig a M44 out and measure whatever..but I ain't taking it off, they are staked just like an SKS:)
I have seen several different photos of a M44 sporting a standard Russian blade bayonet, folded and extended, granted it didn't look quite right. They claimed it fit a little bit loose, but worked, so I would imagine it will work just as easily in reverse.
Hole to shank end.... its not just the shank diameter.
An m44 spike shank sticks out of the collar further because of this.... sure you can make one work, but they are a dif animal. Remember I had this setup in my hands not long ago and one of the reasons I sent it back. This is a noticeable feature.
See the dif this hole/shank location makes? Bottom is m44 fitted to sks.. look at where the blood groove starts
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/curtton/russian%20faq/P1090961.jpg)
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll267/bumthum/IMG_0011-1.jpg)
Naw... it's almost the same animal... thumb1 I said screw it......break the stake marks... just to show it can be done. I $&%@ed up my crap.. rofl2
Russian M44 with a /636 spike bayonet mounted, folded and open.. it does fit a little loose, the smaller SKS shank, but fits like a glove. The Russian M44 will fit the SKS, but you would have to spread the ears slightly. The overall length is even the same.
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bayonet/SAM_2424_zpsr2kzeegv.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bayonet/SAM_2424_zpsr2kzeegv.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bayonet/SAM_2427_zpsvtk4v8zr.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bayonet/SAM_2427_zpsvtk4v8zr.jpg.html)
Russian M44 bayonet with same spike... oh yeah...it will work. thumb1 The Russian shank is slightly larger than the SKS bayonet shank. Even the mount hole looks really close, just make the slot longer. The SKS bayonet fits the M44 bayonet collar a little loose, but won't go the other way around. Open the collar or shave the shank.
Excuse the grease... never had them off..smells good.. :)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bayonet/SAM_2423_zpshaiai4j3.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bayonet/SAM_2423_zpshaiai4j3.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bayonet/SAM_2420_zpslogblar9.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bayonet/SAM_2420_zpslogblar9.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bayonet/SAM_2421_zpsypeup9vv.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bayonet/SAM_2421_zpsypeup9vv.jpg.html)
Slight screw difference
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bayonet/SAM_2419_zpslbzfq7na.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bayonet/SAM_2419_zpslbzfq7na.jpg.html)
Of course the collar is different
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bayonet/SAM_2418_zpstc0nx0sp.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bayonet/SAM_2418_zpstc0nx0sp.jpg.html)
Lets see....find a stand in, a temporary fix to get it close, it's doable until one can be dug out a cave somewhere or somebody happens to get lucky on the fleabay. Bloodgroove...look how many are installed upside down. chuckles1
Quote from: Greasemonkey on January 27, 2017, 01:25:32 PM
The overall length is even the same.
Wow, :o I did *not* know that a Chinese SKS spike and a M44 spike were the same length. How big a diameter difference is it between the two? Is the difference in the whole bayo body or just in the shank that fits in the bayo collar?
Good stuff GM! thumb1
I know its 'possible to turn down the shank to 'make it work' (my bottom pic). Im only stating (as seen in your pic) the hole location is different and so is the shank length i.e where the blood groove starts.... so is the diameter The 1949 sks bayo is not a re-purposed m44 bayo. Its that simple
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on January 27, 2017, 02:36:36 PM
I know its 'possible to turn down the shank to 'make it work' (my bottom pic). Im only stating (as seen in your pic) the hole location is different and so is the shank length i.e where the blood groove starts.... so is the diameter The 1949 sks bayo is not a re-purposed m44 bayo. Its that simple
At the same time...with a little work... it fits and fills a purpose. It's that simple. thumb1
Literally never said you cant 'rig' one to fit.
QuoteI would imagine the attaching screw is the same, Russia would more than likely adapted over the Mosin bayonet to fit it, no since in reinventing the wheel when there was a proven design in existence to fill the gap. I can dig a M44 out and measure whatever..but I ain't taking it off, they are staked just like an SKS:)
I simply address this.... Its a dif animal. Not simply old stock or the same item with shank turned slightly smaller.
Also.... look at the lightening cut. Not even there on the m44, and the flat cut stops far shorter. Wonder if PKE would take his 49 spike off for some good pics. thumb1
Quote from: running-man on January 27, 2017, 01:53:32 PM
Quote from: Greasemonkey on January 27, 2017, 01:25:32 PM
The overall length is even the same.
Wow, :o I did *not* know that a Chinese SKS spike and a M44 spike were the same length. How big a diameter difference is it between the two? Is the difference in the whole bayo body or just in the shank that fits in the bayo collar?
Good stuff GM! thumb1
Ok.. I measured stuffs.. :) Nothing major, just enough where part A wont fit part B without some slight work. It's pretty close..pretty dang close, the M44 is just a tad larger in some areas. thumb1 Which is why the M44 collar fits a little loose on the SKS bayonet, and it won't fit the other way.
I have 1 more spike Chinese SKS and a few M44s and Type 53s I can verify.. :)
In front of the collar where it slides... SKS .625 M44 .652
Between bayonet lug ears SKS .342 M44 .343
Flat part of the shank SKS .339 M44 .341
Round part of the shank SKS .462 M44 .467
Barrel dia for lock SKS .560 M44 .570
Be really interesting to see what others measure. thumb1
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on January 27, 2017, 02:44:08 PM
Literally never said you cant 'rig' one to fit.
QuoteI would imagine the attaching screw is the same, Russia would more than likely adapted over the Mosin bayonet to fit it, no since in reinventing the wheel when there was a proven design in existence to fill the gap. I can dig a M44 out and measure whatever..but I ain't taking it off, they are staked just like an SKS:)
I simply address this.... Its a dif animal. Not simply old stock or the same item with shank turned slightly smaller.
Also.... look at the lightening cut. Not even there on the m44, and the flat cut stops far shorter. Wonder if PKE would take his 49 spike off for some good pics. thumb1
Dude.. please use a little common sense thumb1 the age difference is 20years plus between these bayonets.. the nation that manufactured them is also different. Point is they are close enough to fit with a tad bit of work. Bet the Russian ain't got the lightening cut... same era, same nation of manufacture. The M44 went out of production in '48, which is about the time the SKS went full production.. Maybe Russia modified an existing bayonet to fill the need, give it a little twist, knock a .100 off here and there, wahla.. allah SKS spike bayonet.
I duuno... I have no common sense. ::) No need for personal attacks. senil1
Design carry over, OF COURSE... re-purposed/reused/same item, No. The differences that DO exist between the two tell me the 49 sks bayo isnt simply a reused or old-stock m44 bayo. thumb1
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on January 27, 2017, 12:32:40 PM
See the dif this hole/shank location makes? Bottom is m44 fitted to sks.. look at where the blood groove starts
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll267/bumthum/IMG_0011-1.jpg)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/willyp/russiansovietcomblocsection/russiasovietunion/handguns/1949skssiminov762x39/49%20Tula%20R%20Bayonet.jpg)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/willyp/russiansovietcomblocsection/russiasovietunion/handguns/1949skssiminov762x39/49%20Tula%20R%20bay%20Open.jpg)
Ok... I will just throw this out.. You say thats a M44 bayonet fitted on an SKS.. ok, wonderful, maybe it kind of proves my point even a little more.
Now... how is it's blood groove orientation any different than the actual 1949 SKS in the photos I found with the bayonet deployed? By all rights they look mounted identically to me, both bayonet blood grooves seem to start in the same place regardless of rifle/bayonet type and the tip is even orientated correctly.
How are these two different? With the exception that your photo the bayonet is off a Mosin M44 is on an SKS. If I'm wrong. ok, I am used to it thumb1 But they do look the same, same blood groove orientation etc.
My photos are different, the Chinese I have pictured is a 3 blood groove bayonet and it adds a funky visual difference, the M44 and '49 SKS are both 4 blood groove.
rofl
Geez, I get a little excited over the contents of today's mail, forget to check what is up around here... and you guys are tearing **** up...I knew I should have posted a photo I had last night with my post. I already have a loose M44 and Chinese spike bayo...I don't however have a digital caliper, so the measurements are helpful. :)
The only difference in my photos would be the background and lack of cosmoline.....but I satisfied that with today's mail.
Sorry 'bout those stake marks Jimmy. :-[
I wasn't sure about the end of M44 production, but it does make sense that they simply recalibrated the milling a tad here and there, and basically kept the same design...tweaked for the different mount. The lightening cut may/may not have been there. Those came and went with the design of many other parts on both Chinese and Russian. They may have not reused any already made M44 bayos, but it most likely was a tweaked version of the design.
I have a cool post I am about to make regarding a lot of this, but I am still gathering information and translating it. The original text translates badly, and I wanted to try clean that up a bit....but there will be lots of photos of 49s...still in Russia. I may pull my spikes off of all of my Chinese to see if there is any evolution I never noticed...they have all been off before....most weren't installed on the gun when purchased anyway. Again, sorry 'bout those stake marks.
I will try to get working on that post soon, but I am stripping off BBQ paint...for a lil project.
So quit breakin' ****, more info is on the way. :)
(while writing this...)
Those photos look as if removing the few millimeters off of the end of the shank, tightening up to the same length as a regular Chinese, the blood grooves would be almost exactly at the right place deployed.
Something I just thought of...perhaps the reason the spike was dropped was because they sent the equipment to China to make the T53?
dead1
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/mrcoinring002/blood3.jpg)
QuoteThose photos look as if removing the few millimeters off of the end of the shank, tightening up to the same length as a regular Chinese, the blood grooves would be almost exactly at the right place deployed.
Only that would be comparing it to a..... chinese not a 49 russian. (not saying it wouldnt make it look closer)
Of course, that wont change the hole placement which is also different between the two.
Is that all, maybe a 1/4 inch.....geeze ::) nip and tuck it...Women do it all the time, even John Wayne Bobbit did it, but he went the other way, body guys make rust vanish on cars, so knocking a tad off that ain't nothing rofl2 thumb1
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/blood4.jpg)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/blood5.jpg)
No sense of adventure Mr. Mount a machine gun barrel on an SKS rofl2 chuckles1
Can you clean them with that software rofl Get the gunk off?
Again.... I never stated you cant rig it to work. I just do not believe the 49 unit is made from leftover 44 units, and/or that they retrofitted the same spike.
Common sense right!! OK, Why take thousands of pre-made spikes for the 44 and do a bunch of milling to every single one of them (wouldn't end up with what the 49 shows to have anyhow), rather then just make the collar on this newly created sks thingy to accept the 44 spike?
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/blood6.jpg)
QuoteCan you clean them with that software rofl Get the gunk off?
(http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxnews.com/content/fox-news/politics/2016/11/02/bleachbit-selling-cloth-or-something-in-homage-to-clinton/_jcr_content/par/featured-media/media-0.img.jpg/876/493/1478094195175.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
Speaking of calipers... I managed to pick up a new digi set for just $25 that are in all respects just as good if not better then a set of $150 Mitutoyos. :)
Big screen for old eyes and a super common $2 battery too!
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/mrcoinring002/IMG_20170126_175853770.jpg)
digital... Geeze.. Mine is old school.....dial calipers. Analog guy in a digital world chuckles1
Quote from: Greasemonkey on January 27, 2017, 07:34:52 PM
digital... Geeze.. Mine is old school.....dial calipers. Analog guy in a digital world chuckles1
Yeah, I have a few
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on January 27, 2017, 06:42:35 PM
Again.... I never stated you cant rig it to work. I just do not believe the 49 unit is made from leftover 44 units, and/or that they retrofitted the same spike.
Common sense right!! OK, Why take thousands of pre-made spikes for the 44 and do a bunch of milling to every single one of them (wouldn't end up with what the 49 shows to have anyhow), rather then just make the collar on this newly created sks thingy to accept the 44 spike?
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/blood6.jpg)
Russia wastes nothing.. especially post war.. They converted M91s to M91/30s, converted M91/30s to M91/59s, even still use the x54r round to this day, they are still using binoculars from the 50's. Lets play "what if" rofl What if Russia had a bunch of M44 bayonets, not quite finished, they developed some new rifle and Stalin says it needs a poker on it...NOW!! So take these left overs and whip up a mount and make bayonets out of left over goods.
Ok here is the bayonet shank lengths on both..
On the Russian M44....if I had 4 hands, I could show the measuring.. I even dug out the digital so it was readable, after stealing batteries out of something, and yes, it was calibrated prior to use. :)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bayonet/SAM_2428_zpslxwsjblv.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bayonet/SAM_2428_zpslxwsjblv.jpg.html)
Here is shank length on the Chinese SKS.. same tool, measured the same way... hummm, just .060 difference. maybe figure .005+/-
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bayonet/SAM_2429_zpsqwqtizqz.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bayonet/SAM_2429_zpsqwqtizqz.jpg.html)
Another view... shank to shank, end of one shank on the shoulder of the other bayonet...that gap is roughly .060...
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bayonet/SAM_2431_zpsutc5zpw3.jpg) (http://sks-files.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bayonet/SAM_2431_zpsutc5zpw3.jpg.html)
----------------------->>>>> China t53
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on January 27, 2017, 09:00:51 PM
----------------------->>>>> China t53
Want me to get one out see what its like :)
Quote from: Greasemonkey on January 27, 2017, 09:07:48 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on January 27, 2017, 09:00:51 PM
----------------------->>>>> China t53
Want me to get one out see what its like :)
Of course..... Im still trying to figure out why the comparison to a chinaman. senil1
I don't want to pop anymore stake marks bat1.. but... a I pulled a Type 53 and found there is a visible difference right off between an M44.. I made sure both locks were seated... and China started the blood groove farther away from the collar, the space there is larger. Which makes me wonder.... is this is what could be mounted on the SKS in the photo you posted..
Same M44 with a /26 Type 53
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bayonet/SAM_2433_zps0c4yrobs.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bayonet/SAM_2433_zps0c4yrobs.jpg.html)
Gentlemen, thank you very much for the discussion and I have definitely learned a lot from you guys. I really appreciate it.
The reason why I asked if Russian started using the blade bayonet on SKS's in 1949 or 1950 is because I found something interesting in my recently bought the original Russian edition of D.N. Bolotin's 'Fifty Years of Soviet Small Arms (A catalog)'.
1. 7.62mm SKS-45, made in 1949, passed firing test between 1949 and 1950. Received from a small arms test firing ground in 1960. Standard model.
2. 7.62mm SKS-45, S/N: УП 314, made in 1949, inventory number 9/174, passed firing test between 1949 and 1950. Received from a small arms test firing ground in 1960. Special feature: 4-edged bayonet.
If you look at the difference between Samples #1 and #2, you'll understand why I asked the question.
Not a whole lot to go on in my opinion...
Quote7.62mm SKS-45, S/Ns: PO 1946, PO 2570, and НЮ 1668, made in 1949, inventory numbers 9/172, 9/169, 9/261, passed firing test between 1949 and 1950
This would tell me one of those three guns was a 1950.
I would be more interested is #s 1-5
I've seen several of these lists from I assume Bolotin (not sure which published work it's from but they read almost identical to these) on the .ru net. The thing that always struck me was whether the guns were being dated from written records (like yugo logbooks for example) or did they come from a simple check of the receiver cover like today's typical gunbroker listing. Surely by '60 certain early issued guns like these would have needed refurbishment and covers & other features could easily have been swapped out by then. I guess I wonder how certain the museum was of what they had. I'd think they had to have written records?
Never been a fan of 'books' as they usually have an interpretation of just one persons aspect, overall view etc. Not to mention you hardly ever get references to their source material, yet alone the material itself. Its not like a book has to be fact checked by a reputable agency for publishing approval. Books are filled with lies, misinformation, half-truths, and propaganda etc. I do have to ask myself in this particular circumstance.... Why would the Kremlin give/allow one of its subjects to publish information during the height of the cold war that may reveal state secrets of any type to people smart enough to pound the contents. Or, was this guy not subject to the Kremlin and was conducting espionage gathering information from the plagues and rifles through the museum glass and what the tour guide stated?
I just have waaaaay too many scenarios dancing around on things of this nature. Believe half of what your hear, and none of what you see. whistle12
I successfully converted a M44 Mosin-Nagant bayonet to an early SKS four-groove bayonet.
(https://i.ibb.co/W4Z8tNKF/DSCN1502.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3926z5hW)
(https://i.ibb.co/G4H1Qz65/DSCN1503.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zT6LVqM4)