So when you have a particular SKS, you naturally like to look into it's history and any relevant information. In the case of my Type 56, I found it has a bit of an odd serial configuration, so I did a little research and found other guns with my same arsenal stamp have the same odd serial. Does this mean anything? I really don't know. But I would love to hear from others with this stamp and see if maybe we can come up with some new information about this arsenal.
The stamp itself, is of the "triangles" pattern and what I will call a 406b arsenal stamp. This is how it is listed in the survey database, and it's a "b" because there is a numerical 406 arsenal also. Going off how most "decode" the other popular triangle stamps, 406 seem pretty valid (could also be 0406 if you count the extra triangle as a zero).
The stamp looks like this (artwork by myself):
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r119/PowerSurgePerf/IMG_20140921_201637_235_zps78029dbb.jpg)
I have highlighted what I consider to make out as the 406. This is really just a title though, as what actually matters is just guns with the same stamp, whatever you want to call them.
Now, what I find interesting about this arsenal, is that the serial number on all the 406b guns I've seen always starts with a number and dash before the actual serial. They are also followed up by a letter afterwards, and before the arsenal stamp. The letter suffix doesn't surprise me as much as the number prefix, because we've seen some importers put a letter suffix stamp. If you look at the data collection post below, it seems pretty obvious that the letter suffix IS importer added.
Here is a picture of my gun, for comparison sake:
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r119/PowerSurgePerf/SKS/IMG_20140726_210725_356_zps36e37bd7.jpg)
The other thing to mention, is that all of the 406b guns I have seen except one, were imported by Poly USA. Not sure if there is relevance there, but it's worth mentioning for now.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r119/PowerSurgePerf/SKS/IMG_20140726_210752_636_zps5bfcbb60.jpg)
I would love for other people with this arsenal to chime in, with their serial, importer, and other build info. I REALLY would love to make some kind of connection with the number prefix. That's the only thing that seems to set the 406b guns apart from other arsenals.
I have collected some data and pics I've been able to find with this same arsenal stamp. I don't want to infringe on other forum's threads or people's personal pictures, so what I will do here is just list the partial serial numbers, importer, and any build details, to get some kind of list started. If anyone stumbles onto this thread and thinks one of these is there gun, hopefully they will want to supply more info and pics. I'll update the data as people add more guns.
Good thread...
This "arsenal" is one of many all having the same triangular pattern. These were likely all made at the same location. It is also my belief (from ongoing research) that all of the non /26\ and [296] rifles were either built post 1980 or made from scrubbed parts and/or nos parts post 1980. One of the key features is present on your gun as shown it does not have the type 56 characters.
It is also worth noting that all of the not 26 and 296 "arsenal codes" likely represent a handful of of actual locations utilizing and changing stamps often. Lots of guys have interpreted these triangular stamps in various dif # configurations, but as stated in the sticky found here http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=43.0 (http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=43.0...) ... We really dont know exactly what numbers are represented or the proper order. For instance, yours shown could easily be 04006 etc
QuotePlease note, there are several triangle stamps at the end of the list shown with a (?) after an allocated number. These are arsenal stamps comprised of numbers in the middle, and with numbers in all three corners etc. There is NO defined indication as the the proper order of these numbers within the triangle, so we will NOT be classifying them based on an assumption. We have decided to simply list them as an (unknown), and will be illustrated with a (?) following a number assigned starting at ?1 then ?2 etc.
Data collection post
1-11001XX (no suffix) Importer: Labanu Inc. Short lug, "D" rear sight mark.
2-1603208 (no suffix) (my gun) Importer: CSI ONT CA. Sort lug, stamped trigger, "D" rear sight mark.
2-18053XX G suffix AFTER stamp. Importer unknown.
3-18061XX G suffix AFTER stamp. Importer unknown.
Both above guns posted by same person.
3-1806XXX G suffix AFTER stamp. Importer: Poly USA, pinned barrel, stamped trigger.
3-17069XX F suffix AFTER stamp. Importer: Poly USA, "D" rear sight mark
5-17154XX (no suffix) -this gun is interesting...it's looks like it's been well battle used, and has no importer mark.
6-17152XX, Poly USA, with the letter stamp "E" after the arsenal mark
6-18156XX (has a C BEFORE the 6 prefix) no other info
8-1517XXX (suffix and importer unknown, no pics posted). Short lug, "D" rear sight mark, ground off bayo lug.
9-1519777 L (my gun) Importer: Poly USA. Short lug barrel, "D" rear sight mark, ground off bayo lug.
11-15XXXX (has weird symbol suffix) Importer unknown, Short lug, "D" rear sight mark.
? - 1514588 L (can't see prefix, no other pics)
10-18283XX (no suffix) - another one that looks like it's been well battle used, and has no importer mark. Pinned barrel, stamped trigger, "3" rear sight mark.
Awesome thread. I love data. Good work, I'll keep my eyes open for em'. I see these here & there. Very weird serials. Makes you wonder. Are you positive the letter suffixes are of the same font? And not importer stamped?
Quote from: Worm on September 21, 2014, 09:37:03 PM
Awesome thread. I love data. Good work, I'll keep my eyes open for em'. I see these here & there. Very weird serials. Makes you wonder. Are you positive the letter suffixes are of the same font? And not importer stamped?
I revised my original post after I typed all the data and realized it's pretty apparent they ARE probably importer added. :)
Ok, gotcha. Still good to keep track of the letters though. That still leaves the odd prefix..
Keep up the data for now thumb1
One other thing to note on my particular rifle, is that in addition to the bayo removed and sight block ground down, the bayo groove in the stock was also filled in. It was done very well, and it leads me to believe that the bayo removal and stock fill in were likely done by the importer.
I have since added a bayo back on the gun, but the section of wood used to fill the stock came out in one piece, so it could be put back in if so some reason I chose to :)
Hey PS, here's one for you. 6-1715253, Poly USA, with the letter stamp after the arsenal mark. I'd say that indicates they are either a) not importer stamped as no reasonable person would associate that last E with the S/N or b) they could be importer stamped, but the reason for the stamping isn't for a unique S/N:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T5_0406/6-1715253_receiver.jpg)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T5_0406/6-1715253_import_stamp.jpg)
Original post is here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?375096-poly-inc-usa-what-is-this-factory-code
Thanks Running man. I updated the list, along with my new one as well.
It may be too few guns to make this assumption but..... if you notice, the guns so far that have the suffix and known importer are only Poly USA guns. :)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac94/uzz75/Armi/sks/0406b/2a2aeacd434cf57a9d61243d8112ef24_zpsentpy5ju.jpg)
Guys, Uzz is from Italy (we chatted a bit via PM). His /0406\b is quite a nice one. Note the numerical prefix and the lack of any suffix anywhere on it. Definitely lends credence to PS's thoughts of the prefix being applied at the factory and any letter suffixes being applied by the importer for whatever reason long after issuance.
Uzz, any chance you might be able to get some shots of the Italian/EU applied markings on that carbine? The CIP markings are darn neat in my book! thumb1
Welcome Uzz!! Let's see more pics of your 0406b gun. I saw it over on the "other" site. There's a few things that have me perplexed on it.
Sorry for miss understanding, this SKS I will bring next week from a local gun store, I have just fix it.
Me too I'm little perplexed, also for the price. This is 350.00 euro, in really mint condition.
Another gun store, I bought last week 2 Type56S, and 14 year /26\ and 21 year /016\ at 200.00 but in really used condition.
This /0406b\ is particular so, maybe I think to take it.
Quote from: running-man on May 25, 2015, 04:47:32 PM
Uzz, any chance you might be able to get some shots of the Italian/EU applied markings on that carbine? The CIP markings are darn neat in my book! thumb1
Ok, I don't like EU mark, they are orrible, but I will open a specific thread
I certainly understand the frustration with government mandated markings Uzz. We have our fair share of them in the US. It's interesting to see what rules are in place around the world though. I find the CIP proof tests you talked about fascinating. Here in the US, there is no safety assurance at all. You are expected to take the firearm to a competent gunsmith if you suspect there might be any issue at all.
I love it when old threads are resurrected like this one. I've got additional guns that PS doesn't have in his list and also a correction to one of the entries in it.
This is what we have in total:
1-11001XX
1-140044X
2-140525X
2-140768X
2-1603208
2-18053XX
3-17069XX
3-18061XX
3-1806XXX
3-180704X
6-151317X
6-161335X
6-161351X
6-17152XX
6-17154XX
6-181399X
6-18156XX
8-1517XXX
8-171891X
9-151941X
9-1519777
10-18283XX
11-15XXXX
11-183155X
Now lets reorder based on the first two digits of the non prefix portion and tell me what you see:
1-11001XX
1-140044X
2-140525X
2-140768X
6-151317X
8-1517XXX
9-151941X
9-1519777
11-15XXXX
2-1603208
6-161335X
6-161351X
3-17069XX
6-17152XX
6-17154XX
8-171891X
2-18053XX
3-18061XX
3-1806XXX
3-180704X
6-181399X
6-18156XX
10-18283XX
11-183155X
Here's what I see: Assuming the final 5 digits of the S/N indicate that gun 00200 was built after gun 00100, the prefix perfectly increments as production proceeds. That the numbers never get above 12 leads me to believe that the prefix is a month code, and it may very well be that because of the relatively low numbers of production from this arsenal (remember /26\ produced hundreds of thousands of type 56s in a year compared to ~30k for this arsenal) they ran out of parts and never got to month 12 for many of the years of production....
That's awesome! This is why I started this post....to see if we could make some kind of correlation with the prefixed serials found only on this arsenal. This is an exciting find to me :)
As for a 12th month, it could also be just that none have popped up yet.
Yup... I see a clear serial reset each year after the year designator. See what happens when we actually know when these rifles were made and can order them correctly? thumb1
1-11001XX
1-140044X
2-140525X
2-140768X
6-151317X
8-1517XXX
9-151941X
9-1519777
11-15XXXX
2-1603208
6-161335X
6-161351X
3-17069XX
6-17152XX
6-17154XX
8-171891X
2-18053XX
3-18061XX
3-1806XXX
3-180704X
6-181399X
6-18156XX
10-18283XX
11-183155X
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on May 26, 2015, 12:01:48 AM
Yup... I see a clear serial reset each year after the year designator. See what happens when we actually know when these rifles were made and can order them correctly? thumb1
IMO, these 0406b serial designations, are solid evidence proving the new dating theory you guys came up with thumb1
You made it happen bud, this is more your accomplishment than anyone else's. Great job keeping up with the data (I know it's not always easy and the pay is terrible!) :) thumb1
Next thing to find out is to see exactly when the transition from short lug to pinned barrels actually occurred. I have 15s that are short lug, and 17s that are pinned. I have no clear views of any 16 lugs but that would be the transition year, either part-way through or in between years. Common features across common years (regardless of prefixes) would be another good reinforcing data point. It also would be really nice to find some 12 and 13 guns to find out how they got from that 11 to the 14's.
I have serious issues with the "0406" bs though..... why I labeled it under the ? list as ?14
Quote from: running-man on May 26, 2015, 12:06:54 AM
You made it happen bud, this is more your accomplishment than anyone else's. Great job keeping up with the data (I know it's not always easy and the pay is terrible!) :) thumb1
Next thing to find out is to see exactly when the transition from short lug to pinned barrels actually occurred. I have 15s that are short lug, and 17s that are pinned. I have no clear views of any 16 lugs but that would be the transition year, either part-way through or in between years. Common features across common years (regardless of prefixes) would be another good reinforcing data point. It also would be really nice to find some 12 and 13 guns to find out how they got from that 11 to the 14's.
Years and years of very detailed auto restoration on important cars have made me have a great appreciation for details and history. I love tracking the small details :)
I usually scour the 'broker and local gun trader pages every few days, so I'll pay attention to any 0406b guns I find and post new info to add :)
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on May 26, 2015, 12:11:37 AM
I have serious issues with the "0406" bs though..... why I labeled it under the ? list as ?14
Yeah, we'll have to make some revisions and probably drop the name to something less convoluted...
Quote from: running-man on May 26, 2015, 12:15:49 AM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on May 26, 2015, 12:11:37 AM
I have serious issues with the "0406" bs though..... why I labeled it under the ? list as ?14
Yeah, we'll have to make some revisions and probably drop the name to something less convoluted...
name?
Every time I read 0406bee... I blow chunks
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on May 26, 2015, 12:11:37 AM
I have serious issues with the "0406" bs though..... why I labeled it under the ? list as ?14
When you take the survey, that's how it's listed. There is an actual number 406 triangle stamp, and then here is the multi triangle 406 stamp, I'm guessing hence the "b" .
BTW, the artwork you have listed here as ?14, looks like someone altered the 4 side, closing off the open leg. What's up with that?
Quote from: Power Surge on May 26, 2015, 12:20:26 AM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on May 26, 2015, 12:11:37 AM
I have serious issues with the "0406" bs though..... why I labeled it under the ? list as ?14
When you take the survey, that's how it's listed. There is an actual number 406 triangle stamp, and then here is the multi triangle 406 stamp, I'm guessing hence the "b" .
BTW, the artwork you have listed here as ?14, looks like someone altered the 4 side, closing off the open leg. What's up with that?
The a/b crap came from howie and is an incorrect interpretation of the same stamp. There are several indications this stamp has a closed lower left #. There is also absolutely nobody that can say what order the three digits are supposed to be. Example... the /256\ RM decided with the crate and headstamp data.
This stamp has been seen with little chunks missing all over the place..... Its ?14 unless I reorder the ? page.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on May 26, 2015, 12:30:15 AM
Quote from: Power Surge on May 26, 2015, 12:20:26 AM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on May 26, 2015, 12:11:37 AM
I have serious issues with the "0406" bs though..... why I labeled it under the ? list as ?14
When you take the survey, that's how it's listed. There is an actual number 406 triangle stamp, and then here is the multi triangle 406 stamp, I'm guessing hence the "b" .
BTW, the artwork you have listed here as ?14, looks like someone altered the 4 side, closing off the open leg. What's up with that?
The a/b crap came from howie and is an incorrect interpretation of the same stamp. There are several indications this stamp has a closed lower left #. There is also absolutely nobody that can say what order the three digits are supposed to be. Example... the /256\ RM decided with the crate and headstamp data.
But....we have to call it something... That's what it's been known as for a while; I don't see what it's hurting to continue using that designation. Do you not think my interpretation in my first post of this thread could be valid? All we are doing is just pointing out that same stamp on related guns. And every one of these guns I've seen definitely has a broken leg on the 4 side.
Then call it ?14
Like I was sayin... this stamp and all the ones like are all over the map with chunks missing. Even "if" the chunk missing was accurate, I dont see a 4 at all with remaining lines out in left field. AND, nobody knows the order of those numbers.
Im not about to call it 0406bee when the b is invalid, the 4 is not a 4, and the order unknown. :-\
The survey was using howies designations early on and dozens of errors have been found. Bet RM updates it soon enough, and the arsenal stamps shown here and on the guide are about to get a major update also
I understand your logic, it just seems counter productive to change it. I found info on more of these guns searching 0406b, I'm sure otherside will do the same. I can see if we found the real meaning of the stamp and then changing out what we call it. But to change it from something it actually could be, to something totally unrelated and unsearchable just because we're now throwing it into an unknown list, just doesn't make sense to me.
Thats how it got so messed up to begin with. :-X
Even RM will tell you how jacked up the old crap is and I have been updating the files drawings accordingly while RM has not done so in quite a while simply because a major update is coming and he only needs to do it once.
We dont need to call something 0406bee because others who royally jacked the whole thing up does.
Its not "unknown"... its well known. We just cannot force something to be because thats what it was somewhere else etc. Thats not what the files is all about.
And its been in the ? catagory for a very long time ... this isn't a new revelation.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on May 26, 2015, 12:30:15 AM
The a/b crap came from howie and is an incorrect interpretation of the same stamp.
Actually the a/b started with the survey, so I'm the guilty party for that one. I just needed to call it *something* and we hadn't come up with a ? designator yet. Howie calls the mark straight 0306 or 0406 depending on which part of the left leg appears to be closed. This mark is considered /0406\a:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/triangle/T0406a.jpg~original)
though to be honest I've never seen one in the wild.
After looking at all of the images I have of them, I think that the ?14 image that LC shows in the arsenal stamp FAQ is likely the correct one for all these stamps, and the ones without the legs are grouped in a way that a broken stamp is the most likely culprit (they probably only had a single stamp for a long period of time as this factory's production was only ~30k / year max.)
What everyone chooses to call it is really up to them I think. Going forward, SKS-Files stickies, FAQs, and the new updated survey will likely call it out with a ? number and maybe we'll make reference to people referring to it as '0306'/'0406' in the past so any older posts on other boards can be more easily web searched. At some point in time, hopefully we figure out the correct name and go with that from then on.
We'll need to research this factory a bit more and see if we can tease out any more tidbits of data. The threaded to pinned transition is extremely relevant, this is the only factory I know of where this occurred (though you have to figure there must be others). Also relevant is the 11th year production of the first gun in the list, 1966 means these guns were well out there for use in VN. I remember reading about a supposed bringback with this stamp on it long long ago, but never quite really believed it until now.
Oh.. gotcha. I dont feel so horkish anymore. rofl
I was refereeing to these other ones that appear to be closed off etc. Still has no effect on the three reasons previously listed as to why 0406 is a giant stretch in the first place, as I think you agree.
Quote from: Power Surge on May 25, 2015, 11:57:10 PM
As for a 12th month, it could also be just that none have popped up yet.
Just found one: 12-15301xx
Fits well in the data. thumb1
Cannot be a 7 after the 4?
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac94/uzz75/Armi/sks/0406b/C90D62EC-64E4-4C23-9B3C-14A711346919_zpsgowvckfh.png)
It can be anything.... kinda why its ? #14
Quote from: running-man on May 26, 2015, 04:58:34 PM
Quote from: Power Surge on May 25, 2015, 11:57:10 PM
As for a 12th month, it could also be just that none have popped up yet.
Just found one: 12-15301xx
Fits well in the data. thumb1
I don't know about you...but to me this is really exciting. Not only does this arsenal's production back up the "first two digits" date theory, but this is the first (to my knowledge at least) time we've seen a "month" production identifier.
Hey RM, here's some other ones, on GB right now...
9-1518615 L , poly USA importer, milled trigger group, shot lug
6-1613359 , stamped trigger, short lug
5-1812772 (C before the 5), CSI ont CA import, stamped trigger, pinned
4-1506450 , PTK intl importer
I had to whip out a real camera to get the level of detail on this arsenal stamp, but there it is below.
LC, I know you have your feelings on this stamp, but I can assure you that I have spent dozens of hours researching guns with this stamp on it and I stand behind the artwork in my first post. EVERY gun I've seen this stamp on clearly has a segmented leg on the left side, exactly as you can see below in the pic of the stamp on my second (0406b, ?14, whatever) gun.
RM.... do we even have other "segmented triangle" stamps registered in the survey? I only ask because I've been looking at tons of guns lately and have yet to see one different than the one we are talking about here.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r119/PowerSurgePerf/IMG_1498_zpssnwxa6hd.jpg)
Its not the artwork. lol
Its the fact nobody knows the proper order, nor what all of the numbers even are. I dont believe its a 4 because of others I seen and the fact it leaves a bunch of lines to left.
Like Uzz said... It could be a 7 in the middle for all we know. Lets just say for a second that those numbers are 0s a 6 and a 4.. how do you know the top 0 isnt supposed to be last making it 4060? We dont know the numbers and we dont know the order, its that simple.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on May 27, 2015, 03:46:46 AM
Its not the artwork. lol
Its the fact nobody knows the proper order, nor what all of the numbers even are. I dont believe its a 4 because of others I seen and the fact it leaves a bunch of lines to left.
Like Uzz said... It could be a 7 in the middle for all we know. Lets just say for a second that those numbers are 0s a 6 and a 4.. how do you know the top 0 isnt supposed to be last making it 4060? We dont know the numbers and we dont know the order, its that simple.
I didn't mean the number designation, I meant can you put the symbol back the way it was in the list?
Quote from: Power Surge on May 26, 2015, 11:09:00 PM
RM.... do we even have other "segmented triangle" stamps registered in the survey? I only ask because I've been looking at tons of guns lately and have yet to see one different than the one we are talking about here.
All the other segmented triangle stamps are clearly "6s":
6 over 626 (?7)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/triangle/T6626_P.jpg~original)
6 over 636 (?8 )
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/triangle/T6636_P.jpg~original)
6 over 656 (?9)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/triangle/T6656b_P.jpg~original)
6666 (?5)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/triangle/T6666_P.jpg~original)
The ?14 / /0406\b is the only one I've seen with a full triangle (non 6) on top. It is clearly different than those above:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/triangle/T0406b_P.jpg~original)
The left leg may very well be open by intent, but I have seen images where that left side is inconsistent. Even Howie thought the stamp may have been a 3 and not a 4 for many years. I think the jury is still out on this one. Based on the single photo of ?14 / /0406\b compared to the 4 images I show above, you could even argue that the left character was intended to be a 6, and not a 3 or a 4. We need more examples before I'd feel comfortable making a determination.
Bought it this evening
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac94/uzz75/Armi/sks/0406b/F4ED9D94-1B11-4D0B-B66C-8EED4EF1C2BD_zpsesmqzzgs.jpg)
Quote from: Uzz75 on June 04, 2015, 04:31:59 PM
Bought it this evening
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac94/uzz75/Armi/sks/0406b/F4ED9D94-1B11-4D0B-B66C-8EED4EF1C2BD_zpsesmqzzgs.jpg)
I'm seeing 476 or 0476 with my old peepers. geezer1
Quote from: Dannyboy53 on June 04, 2015, 05:06:38 PM
Quote from: Uzz75 on June 04, 2015, 04:31:59 PM
Bought it this evening
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac94/uzz75/Armi/sks/0406b/F4ED9D94-1B11-4D0B-B66C-8EED4EF1C2BD_zpsesmqzzgs.jpg)
I'm seeing 476 or 0476 with my old peepers. geezer1
Yes, I saw before. Mine look like 7, but serial places perfectly into the "month-list"
Yeah, that just looks like a distorted strike to me, but it's hard to say.
Get up some pics of the rest of her Uzz! :)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac94/uzz75/Armi/sks/0406b/C11344F4-0AE8-4F42-94CB-80632AF0EAB4_zpsi2lfuuu7.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac94/uzz75/Armi/sks/0406b/61DF0A1F-BECC-44E4-A13A-8575F2DBC666_zpsudmsafeg.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac94/uzz75/Armi/sks/0406b/8088F397-C819-42F3-BC8C-C26811CBEB15_zpsesdn3nsh.jpg)
Solved arsenal mark question.
This is :
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac94/uzz75/Armi/sks/0406b/D5D887CA-AEF7-4847-9555-48F173682AE0_zps6idxf6jo.jpg)
I wrote to Poyer and he confirmed.
"You are correct, it is the Longyan factory. Their marking can be found with a wide variety of minor changes. From the photo, it appears that your SKS is from commercial production, rather than military. That would account for the different style of serial number."
Who is poyer... And how does he know?
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/5017.Joe_Poyer (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/5017.Joe_Poyer)
Oh lord. fart1
Can you please list poyers contrubuters in which he references?
Quote from: Uzz75 on June 14, 2015, 04:21:05 AM
Solved arsenal mark question.
I wrote to Poyer and he confirmed.
"You are correct, it is the Longyan factory. Their marking can be found with a wide variety of minor changes. From the photo, it appears that your SKS is from commercial production, rather than military. That would account for the different style of serial number."
With all due respect, There has never been an "/0406\b" found with a S/N that is not a X-XXXXXXX number, including, I believe V/N bringback guns (I really wish I had saved the link where I saw that one...can't find it now and it's driving me nuts pullhair1). Our 'month dash two digit nth year of production+XXXXX' S/N hypothesis has held true for every '/0406\b' gun I've ever seen. Unless the Chinese were commercially producing the SKS for export in year 11 (1966), I think Poyer is plain wrong wrong on this one, just as he and Kehaya are about Chinese SKS dating, Teak wood on Yugo SKSs, and Russian Cyrillic prefixes following a set, repeatable pattern based on the simple European numbering standards of the time.
Maybe this mark is Longyan, maybe it is indeed arsenal 36, but there's gotta be more behind it than "Joe Poyer says so" for me to simply accept it. As for the arsenal codes, you get the answer from where the information is sourced right here in the booklisting on Amazon:
QuoteAn expanded list of factory codes for the Chinese SKS carbines has been made available to the authors by collector Howard Bearse. That information and more has also been included in this 5th revised and expanded edition of The SKS Carbine.
For me, that right there tells me what I need to know. thumb1
Oh for the love of Sam Houston. dead2
This is why I refuse to read these fictional books.
Quote from: Uzz75 on June 14, 2015, 04:21:05 AM
Solved arsenal mark question.
This is :
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac94/uzz75/Armi/sks/0406b/D5D887CA-AEF7-4847-9555-48F173682AE0_zps6idxf6jo.jpg)
I wrote to Poyer and he confirmed.
"You are correct, it is the Longyan factory. Their marking can be found with a wide variety of minor changes. From the photo, it appears that your SKS is from commercial production, rather than military. That would account for the different style of serial number."
My apologies, but for the life of me I can not see that character on the bottom left of the triangle being a 3. It just doesn't "Gee-Haw"!
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on June 14, 2015, 10:34:48 AM
Oh for the love of Sam Houston. dead2
This is why I refuse to read these fictional books.
I have considered buying one...before now.
Quote from: Dannyboy53 on June 14, 2015, 10:46:05 AM
Quote from: Uzz75 on June 14, 2015, 04:21:05 AM
Solved arsenal mark question.
This is :
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac94/uzz75/Armi/sks/0406b/D5D887CA-AEF7-4847-9555-48F173682AE0_zps6idxf6jo.jpg)
I wrote to Poyer and he confirmed.
"You are correct, it is the Longyan factory. Their marking can be found with a wide variety of minor changes. From the photo, it appears that your SKS is from commercial production, rather than military. That would account for the different style of serial number."
My apologies, but for the life of me I can not see that character on the bottom left of the triangle being a 3. It just doesn't "Gee-Haw"!
I was thinking the same thing... I can definitely see the center two making an 8, but just don't see a 3 from that left one.
BTW I've been looking into this since he posted this earlier this morning..... but have yet to find anything relevant.
Power I agree on the possibility the center characters could be an eight, looking at the arsenal stamps posted in the Chinese guide, I saw at least three different variations of the 8. But making a comparison with the other stamps, I can only see a 4 in the stamp in question.
Another issue with this stamp being a "386" arsenal is where does that leave these:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/1504529_receiver.jpg~original)
Year 15 just like this gun, same arsenal, yet different stamps? I'm just not buying it:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/1-1500885_receiver.jpg~original)
Another serial. (Found on the web)
(http://www.empirearms.com/1811735.jpg)
http://www.empirearms.com/041309.htm (http://www.empirearms.com/041309.htm)
About Poyer, I have 4th and 5th edition of his book, and in both still present some error.
So I'm not belive in all the words he wrote.
But, the ideogram found on the book is exactly the same I have on my SKS.
Other opinion about my 0406b SKS, it's mint condition and all the parts are very fine finish, so I can believe it's an commercial production. (Commercial not means civilian market, but can be for selling to other country).
P.S. Poyer on his book, said numbered stock are alway military production.
Quote from: running-man on June 14, 2015, 11:51:46 AM
Another issue with this stamp being a "386" arsenal is where does that leave these:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/1504529_receiver.jpg~original)
Year 15 just like this gun, same arsenal, yet different stamps? I'm just not buying it:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/1-1500885_receiver.jpg~original)
Running-man I'm sure you have considered this but could these possibly be variations from arsenal to arsenal with respect to the 8?
Quote from: Dannyboy53 on June 14, 2015, 10:46:05 AM
Quote from: Uzz75 on June 14, 2015, 04:21:05 AM
Solved arsenal mark question.
...
I wrote to Poyer and he confirmed.
"You are correct, it is the Longyan factory. Their marking can be found with a wide variety of minor changes. From the photo, it appears that your SKS is from commercial production, rather than military. That would account for the different style of serial number."
My apologies, but for the life of me I can not see that character on the bottom left of the triangle being a 3. It just doesn't "Gee-Haw"!
Me too I can't see a 3 !
You need to take that book and toss it in your fireplace.
And if I hear this cockamamie 0406bee crap again Im may go full retard. Besplode
RM and I just went through every last one of these things.... 3,4,7,8... Who knows! Thats why its a ? for now. Not to mention we have no clue the proper order of the numbers whatever they are.
(http://sks-files.com/Themes/1080/images/Arsenals/tiles4.png)
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on June 14, 2015, 12:28:43 PM
You need to take that book and toss it in your fireplace.
I think so.
I had 4th and now just buoght the 5th.
Same errors
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on June 14, 2015, 12:43:00 PM
And if I hear this cockamamie 0406bee crap again Im may go full retard. Besplode
RM and I just went through every last one of these things.... 3,4,7,8... Who knows! Thats why its a ? for now. Not to mention we have no clue the proper order of the numbers whatever they are.
(http://sks-files.com/Themes/1080/images/Arsenals/tiles4.png)
ROFL, the /0406\b will never die!!!!
OK, I'll call it ?5 from now on. thumb1
Uzz, I'm happy to see you're keeping an open mind on this one. Published books are great, but they can still contain errors as you've mentioned. The theory behind the published works stands or falls based on the data, and from what I've seen in my very short 2 years of seriously looking at the data others have used is that it's incomplete, rife with errors, and is not reproducible. All horribly bad signs when it comes to science.
Danny, you're right, I think it has to be a different arsenal. There is no way that a single "386" arsenal would have produced those two different guns the same year, it goes against every previous observation we've made on how the Chinese serialized their guns. Either the ?5 stamp is not "386" (which I think is very likely), the Chinese factory system has multiple plants with the same numerical designator, just different stamps (what a logistical nightmare that would be), or these guns came off assembly lines the same year, at the exact same plant and had entirely different purposes which would have justified the changing of the stamps as well as totally different stamp placement (which I'm honestly finding a very tough sell).
On the "0406b" thing, I'll make the same point as before...
It's already been an established "name" for this stamp. That doesn't mean it's correct, but since we don't know the correct name for it, what's the harm? Since it's already been called that various places on the net, other people searching for info on this stamp will be searching for "0406b". We are trying to collect as much info as we can, so why do we want to isolate ourselves from other people....possibly with new information?
You've already changed what you want to call it twice now, just because it's unclassified. So will it change again in the future when the stamp list gets revamped again? Nothing positive is going to come from changing the name to something with a question mark in it.
On a related note...why was the regular /406\ removed from the stamp list?
How is it going to help anything by regurgitating false information and call it something without evidence?
We... Changed it once, from ?14 to ?5 because many unproven stamps went bye bye. I don't care what other people are calling it or what 3 people are using as a search term. I'm not going to regurgitate ****ty intormation and defeat the entire purpose of sks-files.
Thats like saying. "All bad information should continue without correction because it was already established as such n such"
How fubared is that? .. What got us in this mess in the first place. Its been shown and stated many times over, nobody has provided viable evidence as to what those numbers are nor the oroper order.
Quote from: Power Surge on June 14, 2015, 02:08:21 PM
We are trying to collect as much info as we can, so why do we want to isolate ourselves from other people....possibly with new information?
Why? Cause there was really no tangible, lay your hands on it evidence to support what the "other people" call it. Just cause they jumped from the building roof calling it a bla bla, doesn't mean we will, it's easier to speak of it in ?14 or ?5 terms or just keep the name in limbo till a valid definitive clue or answer pops or new information comes to light. It may take a while, but it will happen. Once an agreement on info and evidence is met, and every outlandish theroy, conspiracy and wives tail is squashed, then we may/will consider adopting a name. thumb1
Just my .02 worth.. :)
Here is a question... Like, where is the 0406a? Lol.
Someone can take an updated serial list ?
All stamps that don't have 'proven with clear photos' data to back them up are on temporary or possibly permanent hiatus. There are simply too many assumptions out there when it comes to arsenal stamps, and that will come back to bite us bad one of these days. The ? stamps will remain in ? status until/unless we can prove what factory they are the mark of. The ? numbers will not change again beyond newly unknown stamps added to the list or, old ones removed from the list because they have been identified (leaving a permanent hole in the ? list)
This stamp is ?5. LC is right about there no longer being a /0406\a stamp anymore. That one was found to actually be a /0405\ based on additional examples and the /0406\a was axed.
There are enough references to various things we've called this stamp that I doubt it'll be hard for someone who is Google searching to find our information.
Quote from: Uzz75 on June 14, 2015, 03:26:01 PM
Someone can take an updated serial list ?
From the Serial data page:
?5 aka "/0406\b"
1-110016x
1-140044x
2-140525x
2-14074xx
2-140768x
1-150088x
4-150645x
6-151317x
8-151712x
9-151941x
9-151977x
9-151861x
9-151941x
12-15301xx
2-160330x
6-161196x
6-161335x
3-170694x
6-171543x
8-171891x
18-0350x (probably mis-stamped & should be a 1-180350x)
2-180535x
3-18077xx
3-180612x
3-180704x
5-181173x
5-181277x
6-181399x
10-182834x
11-183155x
12-153347x
I saw this one on GB and thought it was a 406, but we can't see the very bottom. Looking at the updated stamp list, I'm guessing it's probably a 906.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=488856324
Here's another for the list...and it fits in sequence nicely :)
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=494785893
Here is my contribution to the thread. I understand the issues better now with the 406b arsenal stamp. I'll refrain from using that terminology in the future. Perhaps this gun is not a pre-ban gun as I first thought. That's OK, I like the looks and am glad I purchased it.
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn185/maxwelltl/SKS/sks_zpsomppropy.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn185/maxwelltl/SKS/Markings_zpsw2ocaytb.jpg)
You use whatever terminology you're comfortable with Tom. I'm certainly not out to bash people for it in casual conversation. At the same time, it is very useful to have everyone on the same page when it comes to specific arsenal stamps. It makes no sense for the admin running this board to dictate 'this stamp is XYZ' when there is no evidence to corroborate it and there are questions and outright disagreements regarding what the characters say or how they are ordered. If there is hard data (like for the /256\'s), then we can call it and feel comfortable that there is a valid reason for that decision. /?5\ /0306\ or /0406\ is your call. It may get tiring hearing people ask for photos to understand what it is you're designating a /0306\ though.
You have a great looking carbine there. It fits well with the month-year scheme as well. As for preban vs post, do you live in a state where it actually matters? Federally, that designator died with the sunset of the AWB and makes no difference anymore. I always assumed that those that were concerned with the pre/post designator at the state level required documented proof (orig sales receipt with legible date, etc.) otherwise the gun was assumed to be post.
Latest /?5\ S/N list:
1-110016x
1-140044x
2-140525x
2-14074xx
2-140768x
1-150088x
4-150645x
6-151317x
8-151712x
9-151941x
9-151977x
9-151861x
9-151941x
11-152753x
12-15301xx
12-153347x
2-160330x
3-160495x
6-161072x
6-161196x
6-161261x
6-161335x
3-170694x
6-171543x
8-171891x
18-0350x (probably mis-stamped & should be a 1-180350x)
2-180509x
2-180535x
3-18077xx
3-180612x
3-180704x
5-181173x
5-181277x
6-181399x
9-182358x
10-182834x
10-183093x
11-183155x
Haven't updated this one in a while. A post on Gunboards reminded me about it though:
Latest /?5\ S/N list:
1-110016x
1-140044x
2-140525x
2-14074xx
2-140768x
1-150088x
4-150645x
6-151317x
6-151361x
6-151548x
8-151712x
9-151837x
9-151861x
9-151941x
9-151966x
9-151977x
11-152753x
12-15301xx
12-153347x
2-160330x
3-160488x
3-160495x
3-160747x
6-161072x
6-161196x
6-161261x
6-161335x
6-161351x
6-161666x
3-170694x
6-171525x
6-171543x
8-171891x
18-0350x (probably mis-stamped & should be a 1-180350x)
2-180509x
2-180535x
2-180559x
3-180612x
3-180704x
3-18077xx
3-180612x
3-180704x
3-180761x
5-181173x
5-181260x
5-181266x
5-181277x
6-181399x
6-181563x
6-181658x
9-182358x
9-182521x
10-182666x
10-182834x
10-183093x
11-183155x
What do you guys think of this one? I found it here while sorting the March GB auctions. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=547315501
/?5\ gun with a 21 S/N prefix? Maybe it's not a /?5\ but one of the other /?X\ marks simply missing the numeral within the triangle? If it is a /?5\, I wonder why they changed prefix styles between years 18 and 21? It's clearly a pinned barrel, which matches what the last 18 series were out of /?5\.
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/TQ5/21010673_receiver.jpg)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/TQ5/21010673_left_center.jpg)
Looks like they dropped the prefix to me. Or relocated it to the bottom.
Quote from: running-man on April 03, 2016, 12:21:27 AM
What do you guys think of this one? I found it here while sorting the March GB auctions. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=547315501
/?5\ gun with a 21 S/N prefix? Maybe it's not a /?5\ but one of the other /?X\ marks simply missing the numeral within the triangle? If it is a /?5\, I wonder why they changed prefix styles between years 18 and 21? It's clearly a pinned barrel, which matches what the last 18 series were out of /?5\.
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/TQ5/21010673_receiver.jpg)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/TQ5/21010673_left_center.jpg)
Wow....that's an odd one. The stamp DOES sure look like it. But nothing else looks like an 0406b gun. The serial is later than any others we've seen. The stamp is really sloppy; these guns usually have some of the most even, crisp arsenal stampings. It has the three Chinese characters and no other ones do. And it's missing the month identifier.
Now all of those things could simply be attributed to a later production run started up after that arsenal stopped making the SKS after 73. But it would be the first we've seen.
I hadn't noticed the Chinese characters. Good catch PS! thumb1
Found a new one
http://www.armiusate.it/ex-ordinanza-avancarica-antiche/armi-lunghe-antiche/sks_i295230
Nice, thanks!!
450â,¬ is around $550 at today's exchange rates. A bit of a pricey type 56 by American standards, but not off the chart for certain.
In Italy SKS usually are about euro 300 for Chinese and euro 350
For Russia.
In Germany about euro 600-650 ( www.egun.de
It’s look like gunsbroker.com )
Quote from: Power Surge on September 21, 2014, 09:30:18 PM
Data collection post
1-11001XX (no suffix) Importer: Labanu Inc. Short lug, "D" rear sight mark.
2-1603208 (no suffix) (my gun) Importer: CSI ONT CA. Sort lug, stamped trigger, "D" rear sight mark.
2-18053XX G suffix AFTER stamp. Importer unknown.
3-18061XX G suffix AFTER stamp. Importer unknown.
Both above guns posted by same person.
3-1806XXX G suffix AFTER stamp. Importer: Poly USA, pinned barrel, stamped trigger.
3-17069XX F suffix AFTER stamp. Importer: Poly USA, "D" rear sight mark
5-17154XX (no suffix) -this gun is interesting...it's looks like it's been well battle used, and has no importer mark.
6-17152XX, Poly USA, with the letter stamp "E" after the arsenal mark
6-18156XX (has a C BEFORE the 6 prefix) no other info
8-1517XXX (suffix and importer unknown, no pics posted). Short lug, "D" rear sight mark, ground off bayo lug.
9-1519777 L (my gun) Importer: Poly USA. Short lug barrel, "D" rear sight mark, ground off bayo lug.
11-15XXXX (has weird symbol suffix) Importer unknown, Short lug, "D" rear sight mark.
? - 1514588 L (can't see prefix, no other pics)
10-18283XX (no suffix) - another one that looks like it's been well battle used, and has no importer mark. Pinned barrel, stamped trigger, "3" rear sight mark.
6-1514397 A Importer P.T.K. INT'L ATL. GA. - "D" rear sight mark
Quote from: forneyl5 on January 22, 2020, 04:43:45 PM
Quote from: Power Surge on September 21, 2014, 09:30:18 PM
Data collection post
1-11001XX (no suffix) Importer: Labanu Inc. Short lug, "D" rear sight mark.
2-1603208 (no suffix) (my gun) Importer: CSI ONT CA. Sort lug, stamped trigger, "D" rear sight mark.
2-18053XX G suffix AFTER stamp. Importer unknown.
3-18061XX G suffix AFTER stamp. Importer unknown.
Both above guns posted by same person.
3-1806XXX G suffix AFTER stamp. Importer: Poly USA, pinned barrel, stamped trigger.
3-17069XX F suffix AFTER stamp. Importer: Poly USA, "D" rear sight mark
5-17154XX (no suffix) -this gun is interesting...it's looks like it's been well battle used, and has no importer mark.
6-17152XX, Poly USA, with the letter stamp "E" after the arsenal mark
6-18156XX (has a C BEFORE the 6 prefix) no other info
8-1517XXX (suffix and importer unknown, no pics posted). Short lug, "D" rear sight mark, ground off bayo lug.
9-1519777 L (my gun) Importer: Poly USA. Short lug barrel, "D" rear sight mark, ground off bayo lug.
11-15XXXX (has weird symbol suffix) Importer unknown, Short lug, "D" rear sight mark.
? - 1514588 L (can't see prefix, no other pics)
10-18283XX (no suffix) - another one that looks like it's been well battle used, and has no importer mark. Pinned barrel, stamped trigger, "3" rear sight mark.
6-1514397 A Suffix Importer P.T.K. INT'L ATL. GA. - "D" rear sight mark,mint cond.How do we date these?
Quote from: forneyl5 on January 29, 2020, 12:41:37 PM
6-1514397 A Suffix Importer P.T.K. INT'L ATL. GA. - "D" rear sight mark,mint cond.How do we date these?
6-1514397
Month 6 (June), Year 15 (1970) thumb1
Number 14397 made at factory /?5\ that year.
RM, here is my /0406\b(ee), /?14\, /?5\ for your data base.
It's an all matching NORINCO imported by COMPASSECO BARDSTOWN, KY. Seems to follow along with your dating method since it is a short screwed year 14. Also, just to add my two cents into the fray, I can see the "4" if I look hard, but either "6006" or "0606"is what I see. Like any work of art, it's in the eyes of the beholder prank1. I really can't see a "3" or a "5", though nea1.
(https://i.ibb.co/vc7rPXD/15804029023042068996058885922983.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wd9bWcY)
(https://i.ibb.co/jJLF36b/1580402940661997001583205620279.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PD581mF)
(https://i.ibb.co/j4wBN8x/15804029742902230320685939615844.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x5gPk2c)
(https://i.ibb.co/JvVP88p/15804030278722305817809312773067.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y6tJKKk)
(https://i.ibb.co/8jc1Ss2/15804030915363603288368266630480.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SKrF9y0)
(https://i.ibb.co/Ryq2qFD/15804032974766228186575606132573.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TLscsfg)
upload images (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/2n8HvvJ/15804033425788098723116264826843.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SsQGttS)
(https://i.ibb.co/1Zchmsb/15804033900296195394946891407856.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qB6Xr0x)
(https://i.ibb.co/gW6WGj9/15804034141248079952225702006146.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vdDdbwq)
(https://i.ibb.co/kBXD66w/15804034787027349202029382172638.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B3B6KKQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/kgqHHCx/15804035314932696018638881500186.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lz9kk78)
image hosting service (https://imgbb.com/)
Nice one! thumb1
I doubt the question will ever be answered, not that it particularly matters that much. For our purposes, /?5\ is much easier to deal with. clap1