Stopped in to a small gun shop in Cairo today, just to see if they had anything of interest, and noticed a Russian SKS in a Tapco-sexual stock upgrade, and they handed me a beautiful 1951 Tula.
When I mentioned that wood is better, they handed me the original stock and upper handguard. All of the numbers I saw matched, including the bolt, and the bolt carrier is nice and shiny.
I have read a bit about the possibility that 1951's can come with a blued bayonet and not be a refurb, but this one has a blued muzzle as well... chrome lined barrel.
The stock still has the cartouches around the crossbolt on both sides and has no struck out numbers, and matches the rest, but it is a 1952 Tula stock.
I didn't take any pics to not tip them off, and for some reason i didn't check the bayo screw stakes... however, it looks like a non-refurb.
Is the blued muzzle a sign of refurb, even if the blued bayo may not be?
Also, should the stock stamps have shellac in the stampings?
So far their price is $575, with both stocks, a seemingly correct sling, and a damn pretty rifle. The stock does have a pretty serious ding in the wrist area...
I dont think there is any such thing as "non furb" or "unissued". I havent seen any evidence supporting the stamps around the crossbolt even means "unissued" or "non furb". I think there is simply nicer furbs then others whether this be from location or time period. Nobody knows what constitutes 'non furb' to begin with.... All guesses.
Food for thought..... The entire purpose of refurbing guns is to make them like new. So maybe the nicer ones are just nicer refurbs.
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on August 13, 2015, 09:41:42 PM
Stopped in to a small gun shop in Cairo today, just to see if they had anything of interest, and noticed a Russian SKS in a Tapco-sexual stock upgrade, and they handed me a beautiful 1951 Tula.
When I mentioned that wood is better, they handed me the original stock and upper handguard. All of the numbers I saw matched, including the bolt, and the bolt carrier is nice and shiny.
I have read a bit about the possibility that 1951's can come with a blued bayonet and not be a refurb, but this one has a blued muzzle as well... chrome lined barrel.
The stock still has the cartouches around the crossbolt on both sides and has no struck out numbers, and matches the rest, but it is a 1952 Tula stock.
I didn't take any pics to not tip them off, and for some reason i didn't check the bayo screw stakes... however, it looks like a non-refurb.
Is the blued muzzle a sign of refurb, even if the blued bayo may not be?
Also, should the stock stamps have shellac in the stampings?
So far their price is $575, with both stocks, a seemingly correct sling, and a damn pretty rifle. The stock does have a pretty serious ding in the wrist area...
With the blued muzzle, blued bayo, misdated stock all point to not original too me, I have seen cartouches on stocks that have been swapped to a different gun.
I gotta agree with Carbine here, no way that a '51 goes into a '52 stock w/o something peculiar happening. I think you gotta go with more weight on the current condition on an iffy gun like this. If it's a gorgeous gun, it deserves a higher price. Ugly ones deserve a lower one. All the hand waving in the world will never prove the true refurb status so it's best to base the value more highly on the next criteria down like current condition, arsenal, year, etc.
Quote from: running-man on August 13, 2015, 11:59:00 PM
I gotta agree with Carbine here, no way that a '51 goes into a '52 stock w/o something peculiar happening. I think you gotta go with more weight on the current condition on an iffy gun like this. If it's a gorgeous gun, it deserves a higher price. Ugly ones deserve a lower one. All the hand waving in the world will never prove the true refurb status so it's best to base the value more highly on the next criteria down like current condition, arsenal, year, etc.
True refurb status, I agree may never know for sure......but personally I think any gun that has all the original parts as when built are more collectable , and original parts we can narrow down in these Russians I believe.
It's like classic cars all original trumps pieced together, at least in my book.
Quote from: CARBINE on August 13, 2015, 10:26:38 PM
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on August 13, 2015, 09:41:42 PM
Stopped in to a small gun shop in Cairo today, just to see if they had anything of interest, and noticed a Russian SKS in a Tapco-sexual stock upgrade, and they handed me a beautiful 1951 Tula.
When I mentioned that wood is better, they handed me the original stock and upper handguard. All of the numbers I saw matched, including the bolt, and the bolt carrier is nice and shiny.
I have read a bit about the possibility that 1951's can come with a blued bayonet and not be a refurb, but this one has a blued muzzle as well... chrome lined barrel.
The stock still has the cartouches around the crossbolt on both sides and has no struck out numbers, and matches the rest, but it is a 1952 Tula stock.
I didn't take any pics to not tip them off, and for some reason i didn't check the bayo screw stakes... however, it looks like a non-refurb.
Is the blued muzzle a sign of refurb, even if the blued bayo may not be?
Also, should the stock stamps have shellac in the stampings?
So far their price is $575, with both stocks, a seemingly correct sling, and a damn pretty rifle. The stock does have a pretty serious ding in the wrist area...
With the blued muzzle, blued bayo, misdated stock all point to not original too me, I have seen cartouches on stocks that have been swapped to a different gun.
Quote from: running-man on August 13, 2015, 11:59:00 PM
I gotta agree with Carbine here, no way that a '51 goes into a '52 stock w/o something peculiar happening. I think you gotta go with more weight on the current condition on an iffy gun like this. If it's a gorgeous gun, it deserves a higher price. Ugly ones deserve a lower one. All the hand waving in the world will never prove the true refurb status so it's best to base the value more highly on the next criteria down like current condition, arsenal, year, etc.
The thing that is odd, though, is no struck out numbers on the 1952 stock and the matching serial number is in the correct position.
However the shellac is thicker and darker in that area than on the rest, and has a dull patina on the high spots of the brush marks.
I am still off as far as the money is concerned, even with the Tapcosexual stock to sell... that 3/8" ball bearing size ding in the wrist... :o
BTW, I was <s>fondling</s> looking over my numbers matching letter Chinese the other day and noticed the bayo screw stakes are original... I own a completely original SKS already! :D
Not a Russian, but to convey the humor in that last statement:
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv305/Stoned_Oli/Pri%20Vat/Letter%20Chinese/IMG_20141011_100054.jpg)
Double post.... more coffee!
Sometimes those Russians seemed to hit only one particular area with the 80 grit. Take this one for example:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1954_Tula/IMG_2479.jpg~original)
This stock is off a 1954 Tula that I traded to Blicero for his POS broken Rasheed. It's a very light refurb (a Liski at that!), with all '54 features and a receiver cover that looked like this:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1954_Tula/IMG_2495.jpg~original)
The shellac brush and coarse sanding marks really give it away, but just going by the cartouche and date, they don't look too dickered with (aside from being filled in with shellac). The Russians really don't surprise me with anything anymore. All things are fair game it seems. That's why I will continue comment about anyone claiming to know the true refurb status (or issued vs unissued, fired vs unfired) of any given Russian SKS as being a total pipe dream.
In my opinion, concrete things you can see like the current condition, arsenal, year, amount of wear, etc. really should play a greater role in determining the price than the nebulous 'refurb vs non-refurb' that all the 'real collectors' claim to know with 100% certainty. If it's a nice gun, it's a nice gun. No need to trump it up with extra fluff & stories! thumb1
Nice russian RM!
Thanks for the info, RM, and for keeping my feet on the ground. thumb1
Quote from: CARBINE on August 14, 2015, 10:45:00 AM
Nice russian RM!
It was a looker, that's for certain. Draco used to own it several owners ago actually. Here's a couple of his photos of it from many moons ago:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian%20Ex-DDR/SAM_0376_zps25044ee3.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian%20Ex-DDR/SAM_0370_zps3342adc1.jpg~original)
Oli, if this gun calls to you, by all means make them an offer on it! Worst they can say is no and you can feel good that you at least tried to save it from the perma-bubba status it is dangerously close to. thumb1
I think a lot of your Russian sneaks are non refurb, most of the ones I've seen including mine, show no signs of Russian rebuilidng. Obviously the receiver cover and stock are often changed for well known reasons, but the rest of those rifles seem to be in originally built configuration.
Quote from: running-man on August 13, 2015, 11:59:00 PM
I gotta agree with Carbine here, no way that a '51 goes into a '52 stock w/o something peculiar happening. I think you gotta go with more weight on the current condition on an iffy gun like this. If it's a gorgeous gun, it deserves a higher price. Ugly ones deserve a lower one. All the hand waving in the world will never prove the true refurb status so it's best to base the value more highly on the next criteria down like current condition, arsenal, year, etc.
I know, it's apples to oranges compairson, but, I have a nonrefurb, unconverted M91 Dragoon Mosin where the date on the reciever tang and barrel differ by one year... Now, if this rifle had seen a refurb shop at any time after being built, it would have been converted and updated to M91-30 standards, like a majority of Dragoons were. Also, a barrel switch is something that would not have been done after importation. Given it's current standard issue condition, I would say the different dates of the barrel and reciever, that was the way it was assembled way back in the day. Other non refurb Mosin examples exist with mismatched dates as well.
In the case of this particular SKS, I can not say, but I do think it is possible to have a year difference in dated parts and still be orginial, this is Communist Russia we are speaking of, mismatched dates and matching serials can not totally be ruled out in other words.
Quote from: Greasemonkey on August 14, 2015, 01:19:38 PM
Quote from: running-man on August 13, 2015, 11:59:00 PM
I gotta agree with Carbine here, no way that a '51 goes into a '52 stock w/o something peculiar happening. I think you gotta go with more weight on the current condition on an iffy gun like this. If it's a gorgeous gun, it deserves a higher price. Ugly ones deserve a lower one. All the hand waving in the world will never prove the true refurb status so it's best to base the value more highly on the next criteria down like current condition, arsenal, year, etc.
I know, it's apples to oranges compairson, but, I have a nonrefurb, unconverted M91 Dragoon Mosin where the date on the reciever tang and barrel differ by one year... Now, if this rifle had seen a refurb shop at any time after being built, it would have been converted and updated to M91-30 standards, like a majority of Dragoons were. Also, a barrel switch is something that would not have been done after importation. Given it's current standard issue condition, I would say the different dates of the barrel and reciever, that was the way it was assembled way back in the day. Other non refurb Mosin examples exist with mismatched dates as well.
In the case of this particular SKS, I can not say, but I do think it is possible to have a year difference in dated parts and still be orginial, this is Communist Russia we are speaking of, mismatched dates and matching serials can not totally be ruled out in other words.
I agree, I doubt anything can be 100% ruled out with these russians if it was just the stock I think pics would be the only way to tell, but because the muzzle is blued over and the bayo is blued I doubt its original.
Sometimes I wonder if the only true original non-refurbished Russians are the ones with the gold bayonet, electro penciled butt plate, and all the other non-refurb criteria.....just food for thought.
Very well could be the case.
Certainly could be.
I've always been troubled by the EP'd numbers though. The general explanation regurgitated ad-nauseum is that the gas tube, RSL, buttplate, gas piston etc. were EP'd because they were too thin to be stamped. I find it a hard sell that the Russians would have serialized any of these parts during the initial build. It's not like these parts were particularly troublesome to fit (like is the case with a bolt) or were (aside from the gas tube/piston) components that would typically be swapped during field use or field teardowns.
The only time I can think of that a buttplate would come off is when a stock was being swapped or refinished at a refurb facility. In my mind, it makes the most sense that this is the time when the EP marking was done on those...Is it a stretch to think that anything EP means that the gun has been worked on at a refurb facility, as that is where these components would have been removed and where it was important to match back up at the end of the day? I don't think so.
I really think that the EP'd thing on Russians is like the 1956 + millions Chinese dating thing. Everybody says it, it must be true. Nobody has really got data to say one way or the other but it just doesn't pass the giggle factor for me.
Quote from: running-man on August 14, 2015, 03:09:09 PM
Certainly could be.
I've always been troubled by the EP'd numbers though. The general explanation regurgitated ad-nauseum is that the gas tube, RSL, buttplate, gas piston etc. were EP'd because they were too thin to be stamped. I find it a hard sell that the Russians would have serialized any of these parts during the initial build. It's not like these parts were particularly troublesome to fit (like is the case with a bolt) or were (aside from the gas tube/piston) components that would typically be swapped during field use or field teardowns.
The only time I can think of that a buttplate would come off is when a stock was being swapped or refinished at a refurb facility. In my mind, it makes the most sense that this is the time when the EP marking was done on those...Is it a stretch to think that anything EP means that the gun has been worked on at a refurb facility, as that is where these components would have been removed and where it was important to match back up at the end of the day? I don't think so.
I really think that the EP'd thing on Russians is like the 1956 + millions Chinese dating thing. Everybody says it, it must be true. Nobody has really got data to say one way or the other but it just doesn't pass the giggle factor for me.
So do you believe all russians sks were issued and used, and if not and they were new never issued why would they take the time to take every gun apart and electro pencil each part then, to me that doesn't pass the giggle factor.
Good questions, & I have no idea. Is it a stretch to say that there were some that never got issued? Probably not. But the vast majority of them were purpose built and were obviously used, even if only lightly or for a short period of time. I believe that independent of the condition of the gun or issue year/arsenal, there are some Russian SKSs out there that have EP'd parts and others that simply don't. I just don't see enough evidence to say that EP'd buttplates indicate non-refurbishedness.
It may be one of those things we are never able to answer. If there is anything out there that supports it one way or the other, I'd love to see it. thumb1