I have seen posts about the Ulyanovsk HP bullets that are supposed to be great for hunting, etc. I have some that has the designation of 8M3 on the side of the box. I thought I remembered it as being the 8N6 bullet that was so coveted? Am I getting this confused with another caliber?
What I have is the 124gr. HP LCB with primer and bullet having the red seal. These are under the SAPSAN brand, marked: Made In Russia "Ulyanovsk Machinery Plant" Listing 2330 ft/sec. on the box.
I don't want to shoot this up as plinking ammo if it's the better HP bullet, so any help would be appreciated.
firstchoice
I'm pretty sure 8m3 is the HP designator. There is also 8m1 and 8m2 FMJ ammo as well. Here's the stuff I've got:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Ammo/IMG_2394_zpse14a361d.jpg)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Ammo/IMG_2393_zps8cbf50ff.jpg)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Ammo/IMG_2392_zps97a54304.jpg)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Ammo/IMG_2397_zpsd9f27877.jpg)
What does the initials "LCB" mean?
'lead core, boat tail' according to the web. I honestly have no idea though.
Quote from: running-man on June 04, 2015, 11:31:17 PM
'lead core, boat tail' according to the web. I honestly have no idea though.
Thanks RM, guess I could have looked it up myself! These are the same kind you sent me recently although I haven't tried them yet to see how they perform.
Boat tail 8m3 might perform as poorly as GT in your Russian. Maybe one of your Chinese guns would fare better?
I'll try a few in both, we'll know tomorrow!
Glad I asked, then. I hadn't noticed them being made with the 8M3 bullets until I looked at the side of the 1000rd. case/box.
(http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b436/firstchoice14/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2015-06-04%20Ulyanovsk%20762x39%20124gr%20HP%20LCB%20with%208M3%20Bullet%20001_zpsd3uwjhwy.jpg) (http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/firstchoice14/media/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2015-06-04%20Ulyanovsk%20762x39%20124gr%20HP%20LCB%20with%208M3%20Bullet%20001_zpsd3uwjhwy.jpg.html)
I have a couple different box types. The ones I was asking about in the OP are packaged and sold under the SAPSAN brand.
(http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b436/firstchoice14/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2015-06-04%20Ulyanovsk%20762x39%20124gr%20HP%20LCB%20with%208M3%20Bullet%20002_zpsf78my3uz.jpg) (http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/firstchoice14/media/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2015-06-04%20Ulyanovsk%20762x39%20124gr%20HP%20LCB%20with%208M3%20Bullet%20002_zpsf78my3uz.jpg.html)(http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b436/firstchoice14/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2015-06-04%20Ulyanovsk%20762x39%20124gr%20HP%20LCB%20with%208M3%20Bullet%20005_zpslmsobx2n.jpg) (http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/firstchoice14/media/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2015-06-04%20Ulyanovsk%20762x39%20124gr%20HP%20LCB%20with%208M3%20Bullet%20005_zpslmsobx2n.jpg.html)(http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b436/firstchoice14/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2015-06-04%20Ulyanovsk%20762x39%20124gr%20HP%20LCB%20with%208M3%20Bullet%20007_zpspzupra0j.jpg) (http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/firstchoice14/media/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2015-06-04%20Ulyanovsk%20762x39%20124gr%20HP%20LCB%20with%208M3%20Bullet%20007_zpspzupra0j.jpg.html)
I also had some of the same blue boxed types as RM.
(http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b436/firstchoice14/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2014-06-28Russian--UlyanovskMachineryPlant--762x39mm124grHPwiththe--8M3-Effect-Bullet--001_zps46ef4d74.jpg) (http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/firstchoice14/media/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2014-06-28Russian--UlyanovskMachineryPlant--762x39mm124grHPwiththe--8M3-Effect-Bullet--001_zps46ef4d74.jpg.html)(http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b436/firstchoice14/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2014-06-28Russian--UlyanovskMachineryPlant--762x39mm124grHPwiththe--8M3-Effect-Bullet--002_zps2fa770e7.jpg) (http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/firstchoice14/media/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2014-06-28Russian--UlyanovskMachineryPlant--762x39mm124grHPwiththe--8M3-Effect-Bullet--002_zps2fa770e7.jpg.html)(http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b436/firstchoice14/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2014-06-28Russian--UlyanovskMachineryPlant--762x39mm124grHPwiththe--8M3-Effect-Bullet--005_zps2b50ca78.jpg) (http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/firstchoice14/media/762x39mm%20Ammo-Various%20Types/Russian%20762x39mm%20with%208M3%20--Effect--%20bullet/2014-06-28Russian--UlyanovskMachineryPlant--762x39mm124grHPwiththe--8M3-Effect-Bullet--005_zps2b50ca78.jpg.html)
I didn't get a good close-up pic of the head stamp on the SAPSAN, but they are the same as the blue boxed rounds. Only difference is that the word "Effect" isn't on the boxes. And I noticed the blue boxed ammo doesn't have the red sealant, if that's a consideration?
This YT video is a good one for this round. It has a case of the same stuff I have, but it has the word "Effect" on the side. Same 8M3 designation, just no "Effect".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrS-kya8xVA
Touching on the comment that RM made about these rounds not working well in a Russian SKS, why is that? I hadn't heard that the Russians were finicky about their ammo? (I haven't shot many rounds through Russian SKS'. Mostly Chinese SKS' with Chinese ammo.)
firstchoice
I'd say that the Sapsan stuff is newer than the blue box stuff by 10 years at least. Heck they even have an email address on the boxes! :) The HP is definitely nice and large though. Not flying ashtray large like a 200 gr. .45 HP, but that video is probably not too far off. I would hang on to both kinds. At the very least, you should be able to get a premium price or a beneficial trade ratio (say 3 or 4 rounds for 2) if you sold or traded it away for plinking ammo.
As for my comments about boat tail bullets in Danny's gun, he had mentioned in this thread (http://sks-files.com/range-reports-and-outings/38/sks-shootout-show-off-your-sks-targets-win-bragging-rights-and-6-million-bucks/1288/msg15297#msg15297) that these were his results using Golden Tiger in his Russian:
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/smithdblueDannyboy53/IMG_20150601_182722_zpsvfr0wzgn.jpg)
Note the three rounds to the left target support! Had I been shooting those, I'd have chalked it up to me being a terrible shot (which I am!). Danny is a much better shooter than I am and it's clear from his target using Wolf that this Russian, for whatever reason, just doesn't like that GT bullet.
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/smithdblueDannyboy53/IMG_20150603_120829_zpsisdnjo0x.jpg)
I'm sure this doesn't apply to all Russians. I suspect that on average most Russian SKSs don't have this drastic an effect from changing manufacturers/bullet types.
Interesting thread firstchoice, thank you for starting it! And I'm not as certain I'm up to the accolades (although I am grateful) graciously given by running-man!
I don't want to get too high tech here (it doesn't take much to get waaay over my head) but at first I thought the big spread of the GT rounds from my Russian might have been caused by the shorter bearing surface of the boat-tail bullets and the rate of twist in the barrel. That is, if the bearing surface is shorter than a "standard" round...I simply don't know. But IF that were the case, it would seem my results probably would be fairly common among other SKSs and as running-man alludes, that simply isn't so.
I was unable to try the Golden Tiger today in my Chinese carbines as running-man suggested but I intend to do so. My 3 mil /26\ gun is a good shooter, I'm anxious to see how GT performs in it. I want to see how the Ulyanovsk hunting round that running-man also sent does in both carbines. I'm thinking...deer hunting!
My apologies for 'jackin your thread firstchoice but ammo is an interesting subject!
Golden Tiger 100y with the sks bench gun.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/IMG_20140117_144649_zps12068556.jpg)
RM, I've seen about three examples now of the Uly 8M3 HP ammo in different boxes and even different headstamps, as new as 1998. This follow-up page on The Ammo Channel's web page shows a third type/color box and also two separate Years Of Manufacture on headstamps, which neither of mine has any YOM dates on the headstamp. (scroll down web page)
7.62×39 Ulyanovsk 8M3 Effect Hollow Point | The Ammo Channel (http://www.ammochannel.com/7-62x39-ulyanovsk-8m3-effect-hollow-point/)
What is really confusing me is that they're showing a flat base HP bullet to be the 8M3? It's marked L.C.B. on the case and on each box. So, I'm wondering if the L.C.B. actually does stand for Lead Core Boat Tail? or just Lead Core Bullet? I personally have no idea on these things, so, just asking opinions. The guy narrating the 1st The Ammo Channel video clearly calls it Lead Core Boat Tail, but is showing something completely contradictory. The Golden Tiger boxes show FMJBT for Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail. :-\
Danny, I have more questions than answers, so I appreciate all the input that you can give. I have no thread 'jackin issues at all. It's all good info to learn.
Just looking through the various videos and info from the members here, it appears there was a kind of evolution of sales presentation, of sorts, for the 8HP and the 8M3 Uly HP ammo. Different boxes, with additional info, (even an email addy, RM), and the addition of YOM on the headstamp. It's unfortunate that it's a banned for import item now.
Okay LC, that's good shooting! I'd have to be at the pistol range distances to get close to that grouping. (Maybe even a little powder burn.) :) What are you using for your "sks bench gun"?
firstchoice
Bench-Rest SKS Build in General Discussion - Page 1 of 2 (http://sks-files.com/general-discussion/53/bench-rest-sks-build/130/)
You know FC, I got that "Lead Core Boat Tail" from the web. I've no idea if it's true or not. I think I mentioned that (at least I hope I did, one of the reasons I hate pulling misc. data from the web is not having a chance to immediately verify it!)
If it's as you say (and I have no reason to doubt you at all), the boat tail nomenclature is probably incorrect. Maybe LCB simply means "lead core bullet" like you say and they wanted to make sure people realized it was not a steel core round like M45 in a FMJ typically would be?
Maybe the easiest way to verify is to just pull a bullet from my stash and put this one to rest? chuckles1
RM, That's the problem with the period of time that we're discussing, which is basically the 1950's through the 1980's , even the '90s possibly. The whole import/export of small arms and munitions from both Nato and "surprise", old Warsaw Pact countries, (not to leave out China), was a windfall for us as collectors and shooters. But the influx came as hard and fast as the import/export companies could fill out the paperwork, make up Americanized names for weapons, munitions, you name it, and ship it here for us to buy. The vision was making money doing it and they were dang sure they were going to get their share! Different importer or exporter, different terminology. I remember getting many things with the packaging with atrocious spelling, sometimes the sentences actually made sense. Sometimes. Anybody get any of those wonderful "Owners Manuals" from China or Russia? Some of those were hilarious to try and decipher.
RM, yes, your reply to Danny about the L.C.B. meaning and that you really had no idea,....just looked it up on Google, was what I was referring to. And I completely agree with you. We're just trying to figure out what that particular company meant when they marked and designated their product. I've "lurked" around the boards for a couple years or more and watched/listened to the more knowledgable members try to make sense of all these puzzle pieces. And the way you guys are doing things here on this board is STELLAR! My comment was just my suggestion or opinion. And I didn't get slammed for it! That in itself makes me want to keep asking questions and keep listening, learning. To you board members, I applaud you! To the Mods and the Administrator, well done on your efforts. A sincere thanks to you! I look forward to learning as much as possible from this combined group of minds with many, many combined years of experience and knowledge on all things SKS, among the other "lesser" things. tomato1 :P Just kidding! We all have our favorites.
I have zero proof, nor respectable reference, that L.C.B. means Lead Core Bullet. But Ulyanovsk put L.C.B. on both the 8M3 and the 8HP round (cases and boxes). The 8HP is a Boat Tail bullet, a little over an inch long. The 8M3 is a flat base bullet, a bit shorter than an inch long. The Golden Tiger has the FMJBT on their FMJ box, which I think I've seen the FMJBT, (Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail) and HPBT nomenclature on other brands and calibers in the past, now that I think on it for a bit. It's just something else to try and research! The good news is, I don't think it will be as hard to decipher as the Chinese Arsenal Codes! thumb1
Maybe we'll get lucky and Occam's Razor will apply to answering these questions! Thanks for all the great replies and please keep them coming! If anyone has any other varieties of the 8M3 or the 8HP, pics would be great of the boxes, (looking for pics of that aqua colored box from that second Ammo Channel video), headstamps, etc.
firstchoice
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on June 06, 2015, 12:21:14 AM
Bench-Rest SKS Build in General Discussion - Page 1 of 2 (http://sks-files.com/general-discussion/53/bench-rest-sks-build/130/)
LC, that's quite the project! Beautiful, and apparently very functional. I want to read up on it and comment in that section. It deserves undivided attention, for sure. Thanks for the link!
firstchoice
Oh.. Just saw talk about the GT BT bullets and remembered I had shot a few groups of it. It was actually one of the best grouping factory loads I tried, so I'm thinking the round itself wouldn't be the cause of poor grouping. It must be that some rifles just dont like it.
Interested to know if this stuff is flat based bullet.
I was always told the "8M3" "effect" bullet was a FMJ with an air space in the tip and had a boattail. And I seem to remember a 8M1 "effect" bullet, Silver Bear, I think it was.
Many, many moons ago, I walked out of a show toting several cases of black box Wolf, still have 3 cases :) But seeing this thread, I remembered, these ammo cases, all from the same lot, I'm guessing, have the same bullet as the GoldenTiger ammo is known to have, and they are FMJ. I dug and found a lone open box, and went all Dr. Giggles on it, sure enough, an empty air filled tip and it's boattailed.
The box:
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Misc/ammo/SAM_1577_zpsyuiypzxr.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Misc/ammo/SAM_1577_zpsyuiypzxr.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Misc/ammo/SAM_1578_zpstj447igf.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Misc/ammo/SAM_1578_zpstj447igf.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Misc/ammo/SAM_1579_zpsxchzfkal.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Misc/ammo/SAM_1579_zpsxchzfkal.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Misc/ammo/SAM_1580_zpsxzv8qxfo.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Misc/ammo/SAM_1580_zpsxzv8qxfo.jpg.html)
Now, on the L.C.B. I've seen x54r ammo toting this, usually the term was tied to the Ulyanovsk factory made ammo.
Ok, so some wise ammo guru set me straight. I know the Bear ammos have a flat base bullet (at least all the ones I have do) and a solid tip, as does Yugo x39, and if my failing memory is right Wolf MC FMJ was flat based as well ???..Regardless, if they are or they aren't, they still go BANG bat1 chuckles1
And I found a few more to cut open, if needed rofl2 I ain't digging no more, cause thats just alot of cutting. rofl2
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Misc/ammo/SAM_1582_zpsczmzqin9.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Misc/ammo/SAM_1582_zpsczmzqin9.jpg.html)
And, I found a dozen or so of these boxes in the process... :) L.C.B. :o chuckles1
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Misc/ammo/SAM_1584_zpsiraao2k5.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Misc/ammo/SAM_1584_zpsiraao2k5.jpg.html)
Greasemonkey, I've got a bit of that stuff in the white box in your last photo. Have not shot any of it in a long time. I've probably had the stuff for about 20 years.
Greasemonkey,I have several boxes of the same stuff in the last picture as well except mine are in brown boxes,probably just only a packaging difference. I shot a few boxes of it several years ago and it shot well just dirty as most Russian ammo is.
The 8M3 Effect bullet is different than the standard HP as there are multiple serrations on the inside of the bullet jacket to aid in expansion where all the standard HP's do not have as many or any at all. Expansion with either the standard HP's or SP Russian bullets are basically hit or miss,it depends a lot on what the bullet strikes and well as distance and velocity to target at time of impact as to how the bullet reacts. At some point when both velocity and energy drop off and in some cases even at close range the bullets act just like FMJ's.
As to the 8M3 Effect loads there probably the best chance for good expansion and a quick kill on game,otherwise I would just handload or use one of the commercial offerings with a quality cup and core bullet or a good flat nose cast lead bullet if expansion or an effective wound channel was a concern.