Good morning guys!
I'm working up some gunbroker auction threads from the month of March (something akin to what Boomer used to do and what Blicero did before he weaseled out of the project) and want to get everyone's opinion on how to classify various rifles.
There is quite a bit we simply don't know about the SKS. Refurbishment procedures are one of the biggies. I cringe every time I see someone write "Unrefurbished", "Unissued" or "Never shot". Those are ridiculous claims that simply cannot be proven based on the information we have available. I think it's best to separate the carbine's current condition from the condition it likely left the exporting country (it's arsenal condition). Both of these conditions, taken together along with rarity are the three conditions that can be subjectively used to determine collectability.
For current condition, I figure the NRA Modern Gun Collecting Grading standards are a good place to start. Note that this is only for the current condition of any XYZ rifle and makes no differentiation on matching numbers, original parts and whatnot:
NEW: Not previously sold at retail, in same condition as current factory production. Note that there are no NEW SKSs available in the US based on these criteria.
PERFECT: In New condition in every respect. (Many collectors & dealers use "As New" to describe this condition).
EXCELLENT: New condition, used but little, no noticeable marring of wood or metal, bluing perfect, (except at muzzle or sharp edges).
VERY GOOD: In perfect working condition, no appreciable wear on working surfaces, no corrosion or pitting, only minor surface dents or scratches.
GOOD: In safe working condition, minor wear on working surfaces, no broken parts, no corrosion or pitting that will interfere with proper functioning.
FAIR: In safe working condition but well worn, perhaps requiring replacement of minor parts or adjustments which should be indicated in advertisement, no rust, but may have corrosion pits which do not render article unsafe or inoperable.
POOR: Extensive restoration needed; metal deeply rusted or pitted; principal lettering, numerals and design obliterated, wood badly scratched, bruised, cracked or broken; could be mechanically inoperative; generally undesirable.
For arsenal condition, this really is a category based on what we think we know about these guns.
For Russian SKSs I have the following categories:
As-Issued: All matching guns with original stocks and no hint of refurbishment. No [/], <>, or other refurbishment marks. Current condition may be varying, but gun must be all matching.
Light Refurbished: Guns with a light refurbishment. Maybe a single lined out S/N magazine on an otherwise as-issued gun, a simple replacement XX'd stock, or an otherwise all matching gun with an unfortunate refurb mark on the receiver cover. Condition may be varying but note that light refurbished guns often match but do not have to be all matching.
Heavy Refurbished: These are the BBQ refurbs. Guns with black paint on a receiver cover, bolt, bolt carrier or receiver. Collectors tend to turn their noses up at these ones, thus they tend to be priced less than other guns. Condition may be varying but note that BBQ Refurbs don't have to be all matching.
Bubba: Plastic anything, drilled and tapped, duracoated/non arsenal painted, banana mag w/o original, anything Chinese on the gun, chopped "Paratrooper" modifications, etc.
For Romanian, Yugoslavian, and Albanian SKSs we don't have BBQ or rebuild marks, so I was thinking something like this:
As-Issued: All matching guns with original S/N'd stocks and no hint of refurbishment. Condition can be varying but all numbers must match.
Refurbished: Obvious replacements like RSL in the white, unnumbered or horizontally numbered stock. Condition varying, parts not all matching.
Bubba: Plastic anything, drilled and tapped, duracoated/non arsenal painted, banana mag w/o original, anything Chinese on the gun, chopped "Paratrooper" modifications, etc.
And finally for Chinese:
As-Issued: All matching guns with original S/N'd stocks and no hint of refurbishment. Condition can be varying but all numbers must match.
Refurbished: Obvious replacements like unnumbered stock, mismatching wood on a handguard, or mismatching receiver cover or other S/N'd part. Condition varying, parts not all matching.
Importer modified: These are your paratroopers, Ms, Ds, Sporters, NRs, Farmers Friends, Polytech Hunters, Claycos etc. They were either originally standard type 56s that were converted or they were specifically produced for the importers in a different configuration than typical type 56s were.
Bubba: Plastic anything, drilled and tapped, duracoated/non arsenal painted, banana mag w/o original, anything Chinese on the gun, chopped "Paratrooper" modifications, etc.
What do you think? Unnecessarily complex? Any comments both supportive or detractive are welcomed. I'll likely release my March auction lists in the current format I've got them in (which is not what is shown above, as I've been winging this as I type it) :-\
-RM
Seems quite good, especially if we have this guide to refer to.
"Refurbished" seems like too nice a word for some of the recent Albanian import Chinese SKS's with only a mis-matched stock or many mis-matched parts, but I guess tossed-together-on-the-fly doesn't roll off the tongue as nicely, and perhaps is too much of a subjective judgement on my part. Refurbished is fine :))
Sounds good Joe. Thanks for taking over this. Give ya something to do when your not working. Kinda wondered what happened.
Sounds good to me. wink1
Are you going to have the summaries like Kev did?
Yup, I'm going to try to the best that I can. I won't approach legend status, at least for a long while, but hopefully I don't make a complete ass of myself :)
So Jon, I thought about that too. Let's say you have a horrible looking Sino-banian in absolutely terrible condition, but it has all original stock, all original finish (what's left of it anyhow), and all original S/N'd parts. I'd call that an As-Issued, poor condition Sino-banian.
Conversely, if you had a really, really nice carbine (nice for a Sino-Banian), but it had an unnumbered Alby replacement stock, that would be a Refurbished good condition (or fair or whatever) Sino-Banian.
In absolute terms, which gun is more desirable to a collector? I'd say that arsenal condition will trump current condition in most cases, though this is where personal preference will play a big part in which firearms are desirable to which collectors.
You forgot one category for each country of origin and that is......Bubbable!
That is what you have when you have a mismatched or incomplete rifle that is eligible for Bubbafying or other customized workmanship. :P :P rofl rofl thumb1 thumb1
I like it, good work
Glad to see ya back RM
Glad to have you back running man, this sounds good to me. Adjustments can be made later as/if needed.
Makes sense.
Where does my unissued Norinco with the dust cover scope mount and muzzle break fit in?
Seriously though - nicely laid out RM! Thanks for taking the time to put all this together?
I have one from before the ban that was sold as unissued. I have never fired it and recently removed the cosmoline. It came with a new sling, vest, and oil bottle back in the day. Arsenal is 0408. Was it scrubbed and refurbed? As New? Not unissued?
A lot of you might remember it. I tried several times to trade it off, but no one wanted it back then.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/foster-dog/SKSlabel3_zpsdaa15e57.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/foster-dog/sks0399_zpsb0b38371.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/foster-dog/sks0396_zps1ed7629b.jpg)
It's hard to say with just the three photos. It's also hard to say what configuration the smaller arsenals *should* be in (what type of lug, gas tube, trigger group, bolt carrier, etc.), because we don't have as many examples to create the baseline with. If I saw this gun on GB, based on the three photos I'd have to give it an 'Uncertain' arsenal condition (can't tell if any of the numbers match, if it has replacement anything, etc.), and the current condition would be anywhere from 'VG' to 'excellent'. If you showed it in the box with all the accessories, it could even garner a 'pristine'. It's a nice gun and with a proper GB presentation, you could push $400-$500 I'd bet. Avg trangle arsenal as-issued gun this past month went for $400. This one is better than avg.
The first photo is the top of the box. I even have the original receipt. Here is a poor picture of the accessories and the USA mag that they sold me with it.
There are plenty of photos of this SKS elsewhere, but I guess you don't remember it. I will look for them. Photobucket is horribly cumbersome. Yeah, it is pristine. Short barrel lug, probably stamped trigger group. Bolt carrier and gas tube are just like any of my other Chinese, as far as I know, but the gas tube is EP'd with the serial.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/foster-dog/sks0332_zps0def3ebf.jpg)
I know it is not a new thread, but I am new here. Thanks for another very informative thread, running-man.
No problem RS, there are lots of hidden gems here on SKS-Files. thumb1
As an aside, this thread is a bit obsolete. While it does contain essentially all the info for characterizing an SKS, I've tweaked this just a bit and the GB listings threads use slightly different terminology. I'll make a new sticky one of these days.
bat1
"Smithsonian Condition" ( As New/Unissued hand selected (chosen after serious effort & scrutiny ) from an unissued crate containing two groups of 5 consecutive serial number rifles usually early 80s series of manufacture Yugo M59/66A1 rifles )
Quote from: Gator Monroe on May 11, 2015, 12:13:06 PM
"Smithsonian Condition" ( As New/Unissued hand selected (chosen after serious effort & scrutiny ) from an unissued crate containing two groups of 5 consecutive serial number rifles usually early 80s series of manufacture Yugo M59/66A1 rifles )
How's that WASR .22? pissing1"Smithsonian Condition", you should copyright that term, it is genius in a window licking sort of way drool2.
Quote from: panoz77 on May 11, 2015, 02:05:37 PM
Quote from: Gator Monroe on May 11, 2015, 12:13:06 PM
"Smithsonian Condition" ( As New/Unissued hand selected (chosen after serious effort & scrutiny ) from an unissued crate containing two groups of 5 consecutive serial number rifles usually early 80s series of manufacture Yugo M59/66A1 rifles )
How's that WASR .22? pissing1"Smithsonian Condition", you should copyright that term, it is genius in a window licking sort of way drool2.
Are the folks at survivors talking 2A/RTKBA politics these days or is it still verboten ?